Mapping Your Career with Former Google Recruiter Ginny Clarke

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While the storm of the pandemic may be receding, some analysts and officials are concerned that a new dark cloud may be forming on the horizon – a possible global recession.

For businesses and employees who are still baling water after the last few years, this is not welcome news. But while we may not be able change the economic weather, there are tools and strategies we can use to prepare, respond – and possibly even navigate around – the worst of the storm.

Today we speak with Ginny Clarke, CEO of Ginny Clarke, LLC, and former Director of Executive Recruiting at Google. She discusses her advice for today’s leaders and workers, and offers a framework that individuals can use to sure up their ships, stay afloat in rough seas, and chart a course for a calmer, happier, and more rewarding destination.

Learn more about Ginny at

Did you know that Management 3.0 has a module entirely dedicated to hiring great people? It helps participants answer some of our most common and difficult questions, like “Who should be involved in the hiring process?” “How are management and leadership involved?” “What are the most important reasons for a candidate to say yes to an offer?” And “How can I conduct a worthwhile interview?”

We all know hiring good people is hard. Hiring great people can seem next to impossible. So get a leg up and learn how to set yourself up for success. You can find this module in our “Agility in HR Workshop” and our “Agile People Leadership Workshop.” To learn more and for upcoming dates, go here.


*Please note that the transcript has been automatically generated and proofread for mistakes. But remains in spoken English, and some syntax and grammar mistakes might remain.

Elisa Tuijnder: [00:00:00] While the storm of the pandemic may be receding, some analysts and officials are concerned that a new dark cloud may be forming on the horizon, a possible global recession. For businesses and employees who are still bailing water after the last few years, this is not welcome news. But while we may not be able to change the economic weather, there are tools and strategies we can use to prepare, respond and possibly even navigate around the worst of the storm. Today we speak with an executive recruiter, CEO and author who has developed a framework that individuals can use to shore up their ships, stay afloat in rough seas and chart, a course, for a calmer, happier, and more rewarding destination.[00:01:00]

Before we dive in, you are listening to The Happiness At Work Podcast by Management 3.0 where we are getting serious about happiness.

I’m your host, Elisa Tuijnder, happiness enthusiast and Management 3.0 team member. In this podcast, we share insights from industry experts, influencers, and thought leaders about what it takes to be happy, motivated, and productive at work, so that loving your job becomes the norm and not the exception. We will be publishing every fortnight on Friday, so be sure to tune in and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

Our guest today is Ginny Clarke of Ginny Clarke LLC, and former director of Executive Recruiting at [00:02:00] Google. She also authored a popular book, Career Mapping, Charting Your Course in the New World of Work. Welcome, Ginny.

Ginny Clarke: Thank you so much for having me, Elisa.

Elisa Tuijnder: No, I’m so happy you’re here. I look forward to what we’re gonna discuss, so I will do that in a second and be, before we get into your work and strategies for businesses and employees, we always ask the same question to all of our our guests.

And that is, what does happiness mean to you?

Ginny Clarke: Happiness to me is about health and service and a sense of peace in within me in spite of whatever’s going out on around me that I can find peace and comfort in knowing that I’ve done for myself and for others what is hopefully in our collective best interest.

That’s happiness to me. I try to find it in small ways everyday. Yeah, that’s good.

Elisa Tuijnder: It’s not a long-term project. It should be there at [00:03:00] ever thing

Ginny Clarke: you do.

It’s there if we’re looking for it, yeah. I think my mother said it’s, you gotta look at it as a linear regression, you’re gonna have ups and downs and, but what is, where’s the line going? And hopefully it continues to move up to go up. Yeah.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. And the science of happiness also says that it’s not just about that feeling of being happy, it also includes the sad times and it’s a whole package, so it.

Let’s get into your Yeah. Yeah. Your professional journey. So how did you get into, or how did you get interested in career mapping and how did it lead you to where you are now today?

Ginny Clarke: Yeah. The book arose after I had been an executive recruiter for, oh, I guess at least 10 years. And I went into recruiting after I had been in the corporate world for about 10 years in financial services.

And the career mapping thing it all came together because as I look back on my career, it was non-linear and I had wanted to be a [00:04:00] veterinarian when I came out of high school, yeah. Very different and studied animal science for a couple of quarters and then switched to French and Linguistics.

And so my, even my education was non-linear. I’m just one of. These people, but it all made sense to me. I had somebody say once you’ve meandered in your career. And I was like, no, I’ve made rather deliberate decisions, but I’ve allowed myself to experience different things and not limit myself to just what somebody says I should do after I’ve studied a certain bang.

So the career mapping was really a mashup. Looking back on my career and some of the choices that I made and how I was able to talk in terms of competencies and deconstruct and pull out the elements of work that I had done that I really liked and that I was good at, and how I could apply them to something different and as a different industry or a different function.

So that’s how the book came about. [00:05:00] The executive recruiting discipline, people don’t necessarily understand recruiting at the executive level. I was trained by one of the finest firms in the world, Spencer Stewart and largest. And it’s, there was rigor. You really, it’s much more like management consulting and there’s a methodology that you follow.

And so I compressed all of those things to create this book, to try to help people understand how they need to own their career and even treat a job search like I treated an executive search, right? And so it’s much more about being systematic and thoughtful and starting with a question of what do I want?

Yeah. Before I’m gonna go out there and start developing and executing on a job hunting strategy.

Elisa Tuijnder: I love that you’ve meandered cuz I’ve meandered a lot as well. Yeah. And I think all of the things that I’ve done and all of the studies that I did they contribute to where [00:06:00] I am today and in different kind of ways.

And I and I love that there has been times that I wish I. Did was a dentist and I knew what I was gonna do for the rest of my life,but those are only the times where I’m pulling my hair out. Most of the times. I really like the fact that I have, it’s input from all these different walks of life and for sure, and in industries.

So career mapping your book provides a framework that empowers like individuals to plot and assess their professional competencies like you just explained and strategically navigate their career. So could you tell us a little bit more about that framework, how you came up with that and how valuable it is for people today who are maybe job searching or, thinking about their next move at some.

Ginny Clarke: Yeah, and I did it. My son at the time that I wrote the book was in, he was in high school or junior high in high school actually. And I wanted to offer [00:07:00] something that would be relevant to him, as he said about his career right after college. And I think it took him several years before he even read my book, but that’s okay.

I’ve forgiven him . But the framework was really, it’s funny because I laid it out and then after I had a complete draft of the book, I realized that it mimicked the methodology that one uses to execute an executive search. And so it starts with, who are you, right? Or what is the need? And then it gets into developing a strategy and then executing on that strategy.

And I think it was important for me to offer that to people because I watched how at the executive level, folks would just call up a recruiter if they were very senior, like CEOs could do that, other people didn’t. They didn’t have as much gravitas. But say, Hey, I’m thinking about making a move, and everybody would, hustle and see what, but that doesn’t work [00:08:00] for the average worker.

And I, my attitude was, nor should it, because any search firm is only working on a limited number of opportunities at a certain time, and there are literally millions of opportunities out there for anyone at any given time. There are. And so if we can harness and gain focus and pick maybe two or three areas that we actually wanna be in and create a strategy around that now we’re opening up choices for ourselves, which is the goal.

And you do that over and you continually self-assess what are my assets, what are my competencies that I can deploy in different areas that are of my choosing and my interest? And so I think it’s really empowering for people that was the framework and the mindset with which I was going into creating it.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. I love that. I love that you wrote it for your son as well and that he that it took him a while. I know at 18 I also [00:09:00] might have not read a book that my mom made, but

Ginny Clarke: That’s right, he’s 26 now. And you know what, he’s probably really happy with it. He’s. He’s been using it. He’s on his third job since college, but he’s working for some amazing organizations and doing That’s great things.

And might be on to yet another one coming up soon. We’ll see, but he’s working it, I’m really proud of him. Good.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, I, I like that you took that approach that you took with CEOs and that you’re putting it out there for, all workers. Everybody. For everybody.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So is it, is a book mostly focused around, finding your own strengths? Seeing what your transferrable skills are, or is it also, how do we start that search? How do we go about this?

Ginny Clarke: Yeah. Is it’s practical as well. It’s much, it’s end to end, the finding out your strengths may be less so because that can, I’m not a therapist, right?

It’s big, it’s a big topic. It’s a big topic. It’s [00:10:00] big and deep and yeah, everything else, so I talk about it and offer some resources for people to, to get in touch with themselves and try to figure out some of those things. But then a lot of it is around the execution, right? , it’s the way that recruiters it’s how I thought about taking on a search is what are my target companies, right?

Where might I wanna work and target these organizations versus just firing off a bunch of resumes, crappy resumes at that without even knowing. What you want, and without even having a point of view as to what you would even say and your rationale for wanting that job and thinking that you are worthy of it and that these organizations are worthy of you, it cuts both ways.

Yeah. And I think so often we’re like, Ooh, choose me. Choose me, versus, I don’t know if I want that job. I don’t think that’s is, I don’t know if that’s the organization or the role or the function that I should be in. So I just think we, we’ve given away [00:11:00] too much power and need to take it back for ourselves to be able to discern what the next right step is in our career, cuz we own that process.

Elisa Tuijnder: We talk a lot on the podcast about organizational culture. And how culture should actually match your own values. And and that sort of, the employee journey often begins way before you even apply. It’s what you feel about about a company. I think that, you know what you’re saying there, you, it has to be right for you as well, and you have to they have to think that.

Ginny Clarke: And I can tell you I have worked for a couple of companies where I knew something was off. Walking in when I was still interviewing. And I didn’t stay long. They’re not even on my resume. A couple where I was just like, yeah, no. Uhuh in and out. Yeah. But sometimes you’re fearful And you do it.

Yeah. Oh,

Elisa Tuijnder: yeah.

And you have to be strong to also say okay, this isn’t for me. And earlier on in your career, You also sometimes maybe get where [00:12:00] you can get and or it’s a necessity. It’s not always easy to do that. But yes, definitely. I like to now look as well who fits my profile as well as very much so the other way around.

Hey, so we’re coming off a chaotic few years, not only due to the pandemic, but also, ways of resignations, restructuring, professional reevaluations. Do you think carreer mapping changed all in this past few years? Or has any, did you have to revise any of these frameworks or do you think they’re still valid?

Ginny Clarke: I actually think they’re still valid or more valid. I think in many ways it, it’s the great resignation for example, has proven the fact that people have started to wake up and say, I don’t want this. They are becoming more discerning. And that’s some of that taking your power back and saying, I have a choice.

Look at that. I have a choice. As to where I’m gonna work, what work I’m gonna do, the conditions [00:13:00] under which I’m gonna do it. And that to me is huge because it accrues to everyone’s benefit. It caught organizations off guard. But they needed to wake up to that too because they were not, I don’t believe they had a talent mindset that was treating people as the humans with empathy that they deserve.

I think too many organizations were seeing their talent as commodoties. Yeah, absolutely.

Elisa Tuijnder: And we are all against that. We’re all about people first. Okay. Do you think it is really a candidate driven market at the moment, or is it still or is it clawing back? Waving back the other side again.

Ginny Clarke: I, I don’t like to make any sweeping statements.

Literally every day I’m seeing headlines in the news and reading deep articles and reports and everything else. There, there are layoffs happening. And yet there are so many people hiring [00:14:00] and there’s inflation and yet there’s low unemployment. There’s some of these economic factors we’ve never seen such conflicting kinds of stats To me, I go back to what do you want? I don’t think anybody, meaning, I don’t think the individual candidates, the prospective employees should feel entitled or arrogant or overly optimistic about their chances. At the same time, nor should organizations.

They should, they need to understand what their employer proposition is. They need to know why does somebody wanna work for you? And do we have leaders that people wanna work for? The culture is one thing. The culture can be people are like, oh, Google must have this wonderful culture, and it’s Google’s reputation was wonderful.

Their brand is ubiquitous and incredibly powerful. The culture. Not always consistent, and this is true of [00:15:00] any organization. Yeah. The culture is the soup that people are living in day to day that they’re swimming around in and that’s not necessarily what is on the website and what’s in the pictures and what’s in the news.

 So it, so I think everybody needs to be real mindful of the harsh realities of what a culture is and people at different levels of an organization in their career. Are going to experience that culture differently as well. Yeah. So yeah, I hope that answers your question.

Elisa Tuijnder: It does, I think I also took away from that is companies can’t or organizations can’t just go okay, so this whole employee awakening is an important thing more because also, they have to continue on that path.

And not only because of the recruitment side, there’s so many other ways why that’s important, having that rapport with your employees as well as That’s right, that have that great culture. It’s not just to attract people, it’s also to keep those people there [00:16:00] and to keep them interested and engaged and creative and all of all those kind other things.

Hey, so let’s stay on this little little bit. I know we are called happiness at work and we don’t like to bum our listeners out, but unfortunately we are speaking at a time where, you know, some of these, some analysts and officials are claiming that there might be a possible recession.

But like you already said, economists at the moment don’t really know what’s happening, , so they don’t, it’s all these different kind of things, but, should one happen in your experience, how might that impact employers and employees?

Ginny Clarke: Yeah. I think both parties need to step up now in advance and make some commitments and the kind of commitments I would start with the employee is, make your value known, demonstrate your value.

Don’t talk about it. But you, you can, but it’s more important that you [00:17:00] demonstrate your value. Why should you stay? If there are cutbacks, why should you be the one to stay? So be thinking about that, to make sure, to help increase the chances that you won’t be cut. And I hate being alarmist. I really don’t even like talking about that, but these are some of the realities.

If we go into this kind of economic conditions, and even as I said, we’re seeing some now, different sectors are starting to do some layoffs, but I also think on the organizational side, companies need to really, don’t just have a knee-jerk reaction that just because your revenues are down, that means that you need to cut people and cut costs. I remember seeing, this is what it was during the pandemic. I believe it was Amazon was talking about the fact that they had a bad quarter. Their revenues were down. Now, come on, it’s Amazon also. No one’s crying for them. Exactly. . And so their stock took a little nip, basically [00:18:00] but I respected the fact that they said we don’t care that our revenues were down.

It’s because we were investing in our people. Now, that could have been a nice publicity thing. I’m not trying to be cynical, but I’m trying to . But my point is they invested money. People require investment just. Some of your infrastructure your other kind of mechanical things do, right?

You have to invest in people. And so for companies that are willing to do that, if you take a temporary hit, you gotta understand that it’s probably worth it to the extent that you’re keeping people who are valuable to your organization. Yeah.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. I like that. And Amazon if we are talking about a company that did well in the pandemic.

Ginny Clarke: Oh my goodness.

It’s definitely them. And I don’t know, I think my habits have changed permanently. I ordered all the time several times a week. It’s crazy.

Elisa Tuijnder: It’s just before we got on the podcast, I actually ordered something of Amazon and I had, every time we do, I fill that pinch of [00:19:00] guilt, but they didn’t have it in any of the other stores that I wanted to take.

There you go. By the weekends .

Ginny Clarke: So they got, it’s do you supply chain issues like the rest of the world or No, because I’m still good up sooner than I even asked for it. It’s amazing. . Exactly. Yeah. So my

Elisa Tuijnder: It’s on the porch before you think about it.Yeah, it’s. So as a CEO, you describe yourself as a systems thinker who can deconstruct processes and behaviors to carefully assess organizational and individual capability.

So what kind of processes and behavior, either positive or negative, do you find the most I impactful in today’s business climate?

Ginny Clarke: I’ll harken back to some of the competencies, the leadership competencies that we assessed for at Google and at Spencer Stewart at Google, there were, there was a library of 60 leadership competencies.

Now, no one was ever expected to have all [00:20:00] of ’em but it was for the recruiters and for the hiring managers to say, all right, of these 60, what are the top five that are critical for this role at this stage of our business and that allows us to begin to discern and who’s good, better, and best based on their demonstrated competencies.

So you don’t fall into just looking at, and I’ll describe competencies for your audience in just a minute. I have a couple descriptions. But you don’t fall into they’ve worked here before. Check, they’ve had this job title before check. Oh, they know somebody I know. Check. No. None of those things is gonna predict with any certainty.

In fact, it’s not even correlated to predicting one’s success. So to me that’s where it starts. Now, if I can for a minute talk about what competencies are, of course. Yeah. And how I, two things. The way I’ve described them, and I might have already said this to you, the, they’re the deconstructed elements of how [00:21:00] one does something.

How did you go about that? Another way to think about it is there, people say it’s a skill. I borrowed this one, but it’s a skill plus its knowledge, plus its ability. Somebody can teach you how to run a machine or to create a spreadsheet, but do you have the knowledge of the system that you’re operating in to know when and to the extent to which there need to be modifications, and do you have the physical, mental, emotional ability?

To get it done when it needs to be done. So those are just competencies reign as far as I’m concerned. And I think I’ll point out too, that I’ve seen lacking in leaders that concerns me, that I think is causing some of these other issues that we’re seeing as it relates to talent. And they seem to center around decision making and communication.

On the decision making front, I see a lot of, what I’ll refer to as conflict [00:22:00] diversion and people pleasing behavior. That completely undermines decision making. And on the communications front, I think the biggest failure is around feedback, because if you’re not giving your team members feedback, if you’re not asking for it for yourself of your team members, then going back to your reference to culture, you’re at risk of creating a very unhealthy work culture.

Elisa Tuijnder: Did you know that at Management 3.0 we have a module entirely dedicated to hiring great people where you can learn about such things as: Who should be involved in the hiring process, and how are management and leadership involved? What are the most important reasons for a candidate to see yes to an. Or prefer your organization?

And what are tips and tricks for a good interview? We all know hiring good people is [00:23:00] hard. Hiring great people is next to impossible, so get a leg up and learn how to set yourself up for success. You can find this module in the Agility in HR Workshop and the Agile People Leadership Workshop. So for more info and upcoming dates, go to

There was a Gallup , I think it was a report or poll that came out this year, and some of it stuck with me. It was a talent pile, plan is creaking. And one of the things that we knew that and when, and that wasn’t the surprising thing, but one of the things that I can’t recall the exact numbers, but it was that workers have to have so many more skills.

In comparison to a number of years ago, we have to be in, tech savvy and leadership savvy and communication skills, and we have to have all these different little white hats on that we have to change. Is [00:24:00] that something that you see as well? And what do you think, what are recruiters sorry. What are companies looking for? Are they really looking for those people that are very well rounded?

Ginny Clarke: Frankly, no. I think maybe that’s they might say that, but my observation has been when someone is sitting across from a candidate they’re not nearly as discerning as all that. So I don’t think the reality meets with the, the hypothesis and because I’ll approach it from another angle, which says a Gallup poll from 2016 said that only 18% of those polled felt as though their leader or manager was good at managing or leading, managing and leading or different, but we’ll go with it for now. And it said 82% of leaders are not considered good at leading. That’s terrifying. And they [00:25:00] said it is US corporations. 550 billion dollars. That was from 2016. . And I guarantee you that number has not gone up.

The good side of it. The good side of it. Yeah. So my when I link that back to your question, I’m suggesting to you that for all of what people might say they’re looking for in people, they’re not hiring for that. That’s what the 18% of leaders, those polled thinking leaders are good.

Obviously they’re not getting.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. That they’re definitely not getting it. But, follow up on, on that. Do you think we do need more skills now than we did? No.


Ginny Clarke: Here’s what I think I think we need better assessment and greater clarity of organizational [00:26:00] need.

I don’t think people necessarily link their talent plan to their operating plan or their strategic plan. One begets the other because I don’t, I, I’ve not seen, I’ve seen that lacking most of my career, even as as an executive recruiter, and it’s why do you need this role?

We’ve always had somebody in this role. Okay but, we’ve just gone through all these massive changes as an entire civilization. Do you wanna rethink what your organization might need and the kinds of people that you might need Yes. To do these things and because the speed with which technology is changing, the speed with which people need different things, you need different leaders and different people with different skillset.

So the upskilling thing I think is fine, but I think the level of accountability has been way low and people aren’t, we say we need somebody who can do this, that, and the other, but it’s easy to just add on more when you’re [00:27:00] not discerning of what you’ve already seen. Does that make sense?

Elisa Tuijnder: Yes, it does. It does.

Ginny Clarke: It’s, It’s I know I’ll know it when I see it. No, that’s not good enough. No. Tell people what it specifically it is that you’re looking for in someone and then go hire for that.

Elisa Tuijnder: So I think there’s a lot of work to be done for assessments for people who do assessments and the hiring managers, the gap.


Ginny Clarke: it’s not just an HR activity. The hiring managers need to get more clear, and they’re the ones who are making the final hiring decisions. So they should be, and this is what we tried to do with Google, was to really help them. BEcause their mindset was we get 4 million applicants a year, so isn’t there somebody else that you can show me?

It’s no. For these senior roles, first of all, we’re not taking applicants. We’re finding them and showing them to you. And second of all, they’re leaving. They’re, most of ’em are employed. Yeah, we have to put them away from school, create a compelling reason why they even wanna work for you. [00:28:00] And you need to think about what is it, you’re impressed by their resume, but have you taken the time to really discern that they have the capabilities that meet your needs today?

And that’s where I don’t, I think people are super hasty and make bad calls all the time to the peril of both the organization and the individual.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. How do you so cuz the pandemic and the year for 2021 was sometimes referred to as the year of the job description cuz a lot of people were moving and doing things.

Yeah. So how do you feel about that? And also in that respect, why do these big companies often pluck CEOs from somewhere else? Why can’t they, why don’t they have learning paths towards, or internal mobility towards those roles? ,

Ginny Clarke: First part was around, do I think that’s happening?

Yeah. Or

Elisa Tuijnder: was that, yeah. Was and how did you feel about that? Like

Ginny Clarke: People, the You’re the job description. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. [00:29:00] I, it was a mess. I think everybody wanted, it was crazy. I think that it was great that people woke up and said, whoa I want to make some conscious, more conscious choices for myself.

And I think organizations panicked and listened to the headlines a lot and didn’t necessarily do that assessment for themselves that I was talking about. Like what you just mentioned around who might we have, okay, we’re two people short in this function. Who might we already have? Who could do this?

Who’s demonstrated the competencies they don’t need? You don’t Competencies, beat out experience every time. I often talk about the fact that I have seen plenty of people with beautiful resumes and pedigrees who are incompetent. They cannot get the work done right. Or maybe they have domain expertise, but they don’t really demonstrate leadership competencies like decision making, like feedback.

Yeah. Like you know these, but they know everything about [00:30:00] that thing. But that’s different from leadership. And just because you’ve got long tenure in a certain area, that doesn’t mean you make for a good leader. So that’s my concern right now is that we need some, we need leaders to really step up and be discerning.


Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. That’s why I’m a management consultancy. Yes. And it’s funny that, we’re still having to teach all of those skills, but we have to continuously or that it’s some, for some people, sometimes surprising. And leaders really need a number of skills that don’t come from some sector expertise that were.

Ginny Clarke: Yeah.

And you asked about the internal mobility piece. , and that was one of the programs that I was asked to create at Google for their executive level. People, directors and up, and it happened because Sundar Pacha, Google’s CEO, went to the head of HR and said, Hey, I’m getting all these people asking me about [00:31:00] cuz I, he grew up there, so he knew all these execs who were getting other offers and they tried to get on his calendar to just chat it with him about what might be next for them.

And he said, don’t we have somebody who can do that? ? I’d been there two months and she said, the head of HR said, here, let’s give it to Jenny. And I was like, cool, I can do this. Because what I’m applying career mapping, construct of competency-based assessment to help, because I also was part of the career, the executive recruiting, I knew what roles were open and were not open.

And so my thinking was to the extent that we. Help some of these high value and people had to be referred in. I didn’t decide who came into the program, their managers did. And so can we help them uncover some of these competencies that they might not realize that they have cuz they keep forcing, trying to force themselves into what’s the next higher role?

Having in doing the same thing I’ve been doing? No. What’s another way for you to deploy and to grow more? And so [00:32:00] we were able to do that and we had a 70% retention rate among That’s great. Over 500 people, which to me is a pretty darn good rate. Absolutely. When you consider Absolutely. It was Google and people come after Google Executives a lot, right?

Yeah. So absolutely. That was a thinking. And I think organizations don’t need to have such a formal program, but they need to create incentives and tie it to compensation for their leaders and their manager to invest in. That’s, as a leader, that’s your responsibility. Is to care about the growth and development of your, of the people on your team.

That was the number one reason why people quit. So yeah. Why aren’t we not holding the people on the ground in the business accountable for those behaviors? Yeah, absolutely.

Elisa Tuijnder: Absolutely. Hey, so you have a podcast of your own as well, which is called the Fifth Dimensional or Fifth Dimensional Leadership.

And so designed for leaders and tinkerers dedicated to creating, and I quote the [00:33:00] Conscious Workplace of Tomorrow. Yes. So before we launch into my last question, I really wanna ask you, how do you picture the workplace of tomorrow? What do you see?

Ginny Clarke: Ooh. I see it differently. I see it different from the way that it is now, meaning, You’re gonna have greater diversity.

Yes. That’s one thing. As a black woman, I’m saying that, but at the, I’m saying it because we will come to the realization and we will acknowledge the fact that people have. We keep trying to fix a construct that was never designed for who we are now as a civilization, as a global, interconnected civilization, and we’re trying to fix something that it just was never built right.

So I think women and others, people who have been other, who have been underrepresented are gonna be feeding the change. And it’s not a revolution. It’s nothing to fear. We’re not casting people aside, but we’re tapping into [00:34:00] what everybody does well everybody’s good at something. Absolutely. But people are fearful and so they’re holding on for dear life and they’re making, they’re weakening the organizations by doing that.

So that’s what I see. It’s it’s, I think it’ll happen. There’s a term, I’m not gonna get it right, but it’s quickly, slowly, hurry up and slowly, it’s like it’ll, all of a sudden it’ll be, we’ll step back and go, wow, look how. Five years ago, we are in the way that we’re operating than we used to 25, 50 years ago.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. Yeah. I really hope that organizations are gonna wake up to the essence or the importance of diversity and not just in. People of color or women, but in, in a wide variety of,

Ginny Clarke: From neurodiversity, everything. S neuro.

Elisa Tuijnder: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And because it’s only then we’re gonna, [00:35:00] really make strides forward cuz otherwise we’re just in an echo chamber.

And then we’re not gonna be able to. To fix all these complex problems that are coming at us. Yeah. Hey, so here on the podcast, we always we’re really big fans of tangible practices. Cuz we, we like to discuss big ideas, but we like to leave our listeners with something tangible and so that something they can potentially start implementing tomorrow on a small scale.

Not a magical wand or a big overhaul, but something they can start practicing for, let’s boil. back to your career mapping and trying to take, make people making that new step or next step or something. , can we get something tangible to leave our listeners?

Ginny Clarke: Yeah. If I can, the, I’ll tell you what the five Dimensions of Podcast are associated with.

They are. And so this is my advice, right? They are know yourself, speak your truth, inspire love, [00:36:00] expand consciousness and activate mastery. And I think if each person sat down for a day, and I’m gonna be offering courses on this shameless plug, but. And think about each one of those. Am I speaking my truth? Am I inspiring love?

There’s room for the word love in the workplace, there really is. That’s the precursor to empathy, right? And if you don’t love yourself, then it’s gonna be really hard for you to love anyone else. But that’s more of what we need and get back to our human connectedness and this unity consciousness that says there’s plenty for all of us.

That’s the mindset that I’m urging people to adopt for themselves because if each person gets some of that, then when we come together as a collective, then that’s what’s shaping that organization that I just described to you. Yeah, it’s gonna be different. Organically, and it doesn’t have to take a long time.

At [00:37:00] this stage of our civilization, things happen at quantum rates, and I think this can too. This is, yeah. We’re the best computer that ever lived, right? Our human consciousness has gone largely untapped and unexplored, and I think that’s what’s gonna propel us forward. That’s,

Elisa Tuijnder: I love that. You’re leaving me at a very hopeful

Ginny Clarke: Yes, I’m hopeful. We had a little dip

Elisa Tuijnder: in the middle of the podcast with the recession and all those kinda things, but we’re leaving it on a high note, and I love that. I think I needed that . So thank you for that. Ginny If people want to listen to your podcast find your book or just get in contact with you, where can they do that?


Ginny Clarke: My website is G i n y c l a r k Everything is there. I’m on Instagram, LinkedIn, Twitter Facebook. Yeah, you can find me everywhere. Hit me up, . Yeah.


Elisa Tuijnder: And I guess the [00:38:00] website, is a great platform to start off, off and and find all of your ideas.

All right. Thank you so much for joining me today, Ginny. I really enjoyed our talk and I’m leaving today with some hope in my heart, so that’s great.

Ginny Clarke: Thank you so much for having me. It’s been great to speak with you.

Elisa Tuijnder: Thank you again.

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