What does happiness mean, and how can we effectively cultivate it within our professional lives? Today, we delve into the world of a distinguished trainer and keynote speaker, Chris Croft, whose extensive work spans project management, negotiation, and notably, the pursuit of happiness.

We will explore the transformative power of online education in spreading knowledge and discuss the profound insights from acclaimed publications on enhancing daily joy.

Unpacking myths and sharing practical happiness strategies, this episode is a compelling journey into practical happiness, where theory meets actionable change.

More information about Chris Croft here. 

Transcript

*Please note that the transcript has been automatically generated and proofread for mistakes. But remains in spoken English, and some syntax and grammar mistakes might remain.

Elisa Tuijnder: [00:00:00] What does happiness mean and how can we effectively cultivate it within our professional lives? Today we delve into the world of a distinguished trainer and keynote speaker whose extensive work spans project management, negotiation and notably the pursuit of happiness. We will explore the transformative power of online education in spreading knowledge, And discuss the profound insights from acclaimed [00:00:30] publications on enhancing daily joy, unpacking myths, and sharing practical happiness strategies.

This episode is a compelling journey into practical happiness, where teary meets actionable change. Before we dive in, you are listening to The Happiness At Work podcast by Management 3.0 where we are getting serious about happiness.[00:01:00]

I’m your host re. Happiness Enthusiast and Management 3point0 Team Member. In this podcast, we share insights from industry experts, influencers, and thought leaders about what it takes to be happy, motivated, and productive at work, so that loving your job becomes the norm and not the exception. We will be publishing every fortnight on Friday, so be sure to tune in and subscribe.

Wherever you get your podcasts.[00:01:30]

Today, we’re excited to welcome Chris Kroft, a renowned trainer and keynote speaker whose expertise spans project management, negotiation skills, and very interesting for us, also the pursuit of happiness. Chris has made significant strides in training with a record of reaching millions online and thousands in person.

Today we delve deep into his views on happiness, explore his various ventures and discuss his acclaimed [00:02:00] books. Chris, I am so happy to have you here. Thank you so much for joining. 

Chris Croft: Thank you for asking me and especially the topic of happiness. I think it’s my favorite subject. So it’s great to be talking about happiness today.

Elisa Tuijnder: Great. Hey, so I’m super excited to dive into your books, your why, your person, but I have to pace myself because here on the podcast, and actually this leads into what we’re going to talk about, obviously, but here on the podcast, we always start with the same question and that is what does happiness mean to you?

Chris Croft: Yeah, that’s a big [00:02:30] question. It’s quite hard to define. For somebody who, yeah, for somebody who’s written a book on this as well. In a dictionary, it’s just something like a perceived feeling of well being or something, so they’ve not really explained it at all. And there are lots of books written on it. In my book, I avoided saying what happiness is, actually.

I just go straight into how to get it, how to get more of it. But I have been thinking for a while that the meaning of life is enjoy and achieve. Because you’ve only got the present and the future. Yeah. So in the present, you want to enjoy yourself as much as you can. And in [00:03:00] the future, you want to achieve as much as you can, which be enjoyable when you get there.

And then I discovered recently when I started investigating happiness, that there’s two types of happiness. There’s hedonic and eudaimonic, right? And hedonic happiness is like fun. It’s basically happiness in the present. It’s 

Elisa Tuijnder: your yacht, and it’s your Yeah, eating loads of I haven’t got a yacht. 

Chris Croft: But eating loads of food and partying, dancing, etc.

And then there’s eudaimonic happiness. Eudaimonia is a Greek word, I think, for [00:03:30] well being or something. And that’s That’s really more like achievement, but it’s looking back. It’s feeling happy about your life and thinking, I did that. I was on that podcast and it felt good. So you could have happiness during the podcast.

And then afterwards you think, yes, I nailed that. And it’s there, it’s recorded. People can watch it. And then you get the eudaimonic happiness, which is more a feeling of achievement. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Also about giving back. I think somehow eudaimonic, I don’t know that they included this, the Greeks already, but it also feels this transformation, that giving back part [00:04:00] of it.

Chris Croft: I think giving back actually contributes to both. Yeah. If you do something for people, you feel good immediately. You get, in fact, you get more enjoyment probably than they do. You feel good. And, but also later you can look back and think I’ve helped all those people. And one of the things I do with my video courses that people watch in large numbers, thank goodness.

I don’t know why, but they do. 

I 

Chris Croft: can, I tell myself that I’ve made a difference to some people’s lives. And so that makes me happy because I [00:04:30] feel that I’ve made a difference. And that is one of the reasons why I do it, actually, because I want to feel I’m making a difference. Otherwise, what’s the point? And so, yeah, so that’s, so happiness, I think, is a mixture of fun at the time, but also being able to look back and feel sort of satisfied or content, which is, which is quite different.

And it’s both those things. And the game is to get a mixture of both, because if you go too much fun, you end up just having hangovers and achieving, and you don’t get the second one, have a shallow sort of life, but if [00:05:00] you are always working for the future, you forget to have any fun in the present, like lots of sort of people who run companies and are very ambitious and want to be famous.

They end up never having any fun. Because it’s always jam tomorrow. When I finally become famous, then I’ll have fun. And then when they get there, they go, why isn’t it fun? You know, the classic would be And then you get a 

Elisa Tuijnder: hedonistic adaptation, as you mentioned there. 

Chris Croft: So something like, say, getting a gold medal in the Olympics.

It doesn’t make people happy because it’s a really horrible process to get there. And they think, if I get the medal, I’ll be happy. And then once they got the medal, they [00:05:30] go, why aren’t I happy? And of course the answer is nothing’s changed. You’re still just 

Elisa Tuijnder: you. And then 

Chris Croft: you’ve got the problem of even the achievement.

You think I’ve got to go to another one. What do I do next? Do I try to get another one? And how do I top this? And so gold medals don’t make people happy. And gold in general. Yeah. Gold in general. We’ll come to that. But the balance between fun in the present and achievement in the future, I think is what happiness is all about, really.

And quite difficult to do, but worth a try, because it’s the most important thing, isn’t it, after all? 

Elisa Tuijnder: Chris, you’re the first person, I [00:06:00] think, in two and a bit years that also has mentioned the past. in this bit. I love it. But you put it in like looking back on, on, on what you’ve achieved. And I think that’s the first person who’s done that in the two and a bit years.

You can’t 

Chris Croft: change the past. And I think some people hark back to the past in a bad way. If only I’d done that. Oh, I was such a fool. And there’s other people who go back in a good way and they go, do you remember the good old days? And wasn’t it great when we, when we were young, I wish I was younger and that’s also not healthy.

But to look back and think, [00:06:30] yeah, that was good. You can get some happiness back from the past, as long as you’re going to do it again in the future, or going to do something else in the future. You don’t want to let the past consume you too much. I think it’s quite dangerous to go back to the past too much.

But looking back over old photos and having a laugh, sort of thing, or meeting up with friends from school and laughing about the things that you did or whatever. I think you can pull some happiness out of that. I think my rule is always, if it’s making you happy, do it. And if it doesn’t make you happy, don’t.[00:07:00]

But if it makes you happy in the present, 

Elisa Tuijnder: yeah,

Chris Croft: but you could apply that to something like cocaine or something, which would make you happy in the present, maybe, but not good for your future. So, I think, and also not good for other people’s happiness. You got to think about that as well, haven’t you? That is 

Elisa Tuijnder: true.

Yeah, absolutely. 

Chris Croft: Not that I’ve ever tried it, but I’m trying to 

Elisa Tuijnder: try it. I’ve, I’ve been working on, on, it’s like a, an analysis of what everyone has said on the podcast about this question. And I’ve done the first three years and it’s quite interesting. And then. Hmm. If putting [00:07:30] out a white paper on it soon, but I’m just cutting through the, going through the very old episodes, old 2016, but in podcast terms, that is already quite old, uh, to see, uh, to see what experts and influencers around us have said, yeah.

Chris Croft: I’d love to see what you end up with, but I also think in a way it doesn’t matter because we sort of, we kind of know what it is, as long as you don’t get the definition so wrong. That you think happiness equals fame. So I’ll just go for that. Or happiness equals money. I’ll just go, as long as you sort of roughly know what happiness [00:08:00] is.

I think a much more interesting question is how do you get it? 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. And that’s where you’ve been. We’re going to come to, aren’t we? Yeah, we’re definitely going to come to. But before we get there, I really, you’ve had such an impressive career around these various sectors, dedicating yourself to.

Eventually do training and development. I just want to know what inspired you to transition or to go into this 

Chris Croft: field. And, and, Oh, I don’t think you’re going to like the answer to this. In a way, I don’t believe in luck in a way. I think you make your own luck and you work [00:08:30] really hard to do something. And then afterwards people say you were lucky.

And so I think there’s an element of that, but I also think it was luck that I’ve ended up doing this. Because it was a mixture of luck and stupidity and argumentativeness, because I got fired several times. They called it making me redundant, but really they were firing me. I had several bosses who I just argued with cause they were wrong and I kept telling them and they didn’t like that.[00:09:00]

And in the end, they said, Chris, do you want to just have six months pay and go now? And I was like, yes, and looking back, I think I was probably unemployable really. Cause I was in the wrong job. I was running factories, was a terrible engineer and I was a better manager. I didn’t really enjoy being a manager and yeah, I’m just glad that I didn’t settle for being an engineer and think I’m not a very good one, but I’ll do it my whole life or didn’t settle for a manager thinking I don’t like this, but what else can I do?

And luckily. [00:09:30] I, after I’d been made redundant several times, I thought something’s got to change. And so it was a sort of dislike and failure in my previous jobs. I was clever enough to get away with it, but it was, I wasn’t great at doing it. And there was a job advertised for the local university as a lecturer.

So I’m going to apply for that and see what happens. And I applied for it and was amazed to get it. And then once I started, it was brilliant. I loved it. It was like [00:10:00] when the fish is put in the water and suddenly you think that’s what I want to do. And I’ve been flapping around on dry land for all these years and now, like a penguin, like really hopeless on the snow.

And when it gets into the water, yes. So. 

Elisa Tuijnder: But sometimes the flapping is also important, right? The flapping gave you contacts and the flapping gave you a lot of good stories. 

Chris Croft: Oh, so much material about bad bosses and everything. So you’re right. Maybe there’s a purpose. And somebody told me once that if you look on the back of a [00:10:30] beautiful embroidery, it’s just a mess of threads and things.

And that’s what we see in our lives, all the mess. And actually on the back, maybe there is a picture, but I, I don’t, I’m not sure if I believe that somebody up there is weaving a picture for me. I think you make the life, but I do think that you use everything you’ve had so far. And if some of it was bad, then.

You can definitely use it to your 

Elisa Tuijnder: advantage. 

Chris Croft: Yeah. And so I think that’s probably what I’ve done really. And I’ve, I found the thing I was born to do, and then I’ve worked really hard on [00:11:00] that, but it hasn’t felt like work. Cause I love it. So I’ve been to America 11 times to be filmed and then I’ve been making a whole load of courses here and writing them and filming them, but a lot of people would think, good grief, you’ve worked hard.

So I’ve got 43 courses on LinkedIn learning and another 26 on Udemy. So I’m on, I’ve made about 70 courses and each one is. Between sort of 20 and a hundred videos, I’ve filmed so much stuff, but. Only because I love doing it, you know, I mean, it does pay as well, but [00:11:30] it’s not, that’s not why I’m doing it though.

It really isn’t. In fact, funnily enough, I’ve got a few more courses I want to make and I know they probably won’t sell very well. They’re sort of a bit obscure, but they’re just things I want to do. They’re stuck in my head until I can get them out of my head. Then I feel better. And if the other courses pay the bills, that’s also great.

Yeah. It means I can have that luxury of doing what I want to do. Yeah. Yeah. But it means that I really believe in them, which I think comes across because I think if you just make something, cause you [00:12:00] think it will sell one of the things I’ve always say is, don’t start with the money. Don’t say, I reckon I can make money doing this because then it probably won’t work because your heart won’t be in it.

And even if it does work, you won’t enjoy it because you’re doing something that wasn’t your first choice just because you think you can make money doing it. So I think you should start with what you love doing. And maybe what you’re good at, but you’ll get better at it anyway. You can learn it. The first.

video course I did was terrible. I just was, I [00:12:30] found it so difficult. I was so nervous and I, you got to remember to look at the camera the whole time and what do you do with your hands and all these things. And the people doing it kept saying, okay, Chris, let’s just do one more take. All the things that I say to other people now.

Very nicely 

Elisa Tuijnder: padding it. First a cup of tea and then okay, come on. Yes, that was 

Chris Croft: good, but let’s just take a break and have another go in a minute. And can you do it without saying shit or can you do it without telling a story about shooting your neighbor’s cat or something? Not that I would do that. And, but it was, I remember thinking, why can’t I do [00:13:00]this?

Why, how hard can it be? But the answer is, it’s just different. I think it’s easy to learn, but it’s just different to what you’ve done before. And talking to an audience is completely different to talking to a camera. And talking to an audience is quite hard, but, but I’m happy with that. But with a camera, you get no feedback at all.

It’s like talking to the worst audience ever because it just sits there like this and there’s nothing coming back. But now I just, I know there’s a person the other side of the camera who’s watching it or going to be watching it. And [00:13:30] the camera’s become my friend and it’s easy. It’s only practice. And so you can learn that.

So I think don’t start with the money, start with what you love doing and you’ll probably become good at it and then that’ll be fine. That’s what, so that’s what I’ve done. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, you just said that obviously you did that application, you ended up at the local university, found your call, you were penguin in the water.

Then you got involved with linda.call, which now LinkedIn learning and Yes, me. How did that [00:14:00] digital landscape change for you? Like how you said at first there was this camera, you didn’t know the audience, but how did that open the world or putting your message out there? What did it change for you? 

Chris Croft: I’d made a course for Udemy ’cause my daughter had discovered Udemy and she’d been making makeup courses for Udemy.

And 

Chris Croft: I said, why don’t we just record. Like management and negotiating and do a couple. I’ll just talk to the camera. You can cut it up. And we, so we did that and it did really well. And roughly at the same time, or very soon afterwards, I got an email from [00:14:30] LinkedIn learning called lynda. com saying, would you like to make a course for us?

I don’t think they’d seen the Udemy courses. I think they’d seen some YouTube videos that I’d made and they, cause I would urge everybody who’s self employed to put something on YouTube because that’s how people will find you because Google and YouTube are linked, et cetera. Uh, anyway, I got this email from lynda.

com who I’d never heard of saying, would you like to come to America and make a course? I said, no, like a complete idiot. I can’t believe I [00:15:00] was that stupid. The good news, folks, is you can be stupid and still succeed at things. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Um, 

Chris Croft: yeah, I just said, no, I don’t want to do that. And they said, do you know who we are?

And I said, no, not really. Cause they weren’t on YouTube at the time. No, they’ve got, they had a website, but you had to pay to get into the website. And so there was just a homepage and it just wasn’t very good. They would probably agree. And I just thought, what is this? And I didn’t realize they had thousands of courses and they were the biggest in the world.

I’d never [00:15:30] heard of them. In America, I think everybody had heard of them, but in the UK, we didn’t. Still have, 

Elisa Tuijnder: still not like, I mean, legacy learning. Yes. But lin. com, I know of it because we’re working through training consultancy companies, but I don’t think it’s a big thing in the, 

Chris Croft: I was doing a project management course in London and somebody said to me, you’re quite amusing.

You should make, you should be on lynda. com. And I said, I already am. And he went, what? And he, in his computer, he got, and he dialed up and there I was. And he was like, Oh my God, Oh my God. [00:16:00] And he was virtually kissing my feet then. Once he realized I was on there, it was a famous moment, but it’s very rare that people have even Was this 

Elisa Tuijnder: person American 

Chris Croft: or was this person from the UK?

Yeah. It was in the UK. I think he was Spanish or something. I think he was European. So like a computer guy, but he’d been, they had a lot of techie stuff on there originally and not much management stuff. And I think he’d learned Python or something from there. 

Okay. 

Chris Croft: But yeah, he was amazed, but most, so I’d never heard of it.

So I [00:16:30] just said, I don’t want to do that. And they said, you know who we are? I was like, no. And, but it was only when they said that they would pay me some money in advance. And fly me over and pay for the car, the hotel, and a food allowance. That was what got me. You were like, okay, the food I’m there. Yes. So, uh, to be fair, I’d be too.

Yeah. So I very nearly didn’t do it. And then the first one was really hard, but they asked me back to my amazement because I didn’t feel I’d done a very good job, but they asked me back. Although looking back on that [00:17:00] first course, project management simplified. I think it is a good course. I’m still really proud of it, actually.

Mainly because I’m not an expert on project management. So. I don’t go off into loads of technical detail. I’ve made it simple for a normal person because that, because I’m a normal person and I think people really like that. So they kept asking me back and it grew and I think something that is interesting about this that people can learn from actually is when.

A few thousand pounds a month was coming in. I started thinking I [00:17:30] could give up Fridays. I don’t have to work every day of the week running training courses for people. And I decided to take Fridays off and have a three day weekend. Cause happiness, I think the ratio of five to two is not very nice. And the ratio of four to three is much nicer.

It 

feels a lot better. 

Chris Croft: It’s a lot, really different. So I thought I can take Friday’s off and I can afford it now. So I thought, how do I get rid of a fifth of my customers? 20 percent of my customers. I know what I’ll do. I’ll put the price up by [00:18:00] 20 percent because that’ll get rid of them. And, um, so I put the price up by 20 percent and guess what happened?

Not a single customer left, they all just went, Oh, all right then. And so the first thought was I should have done that years ago. Should have been charging 20 percent more years ago. My second thought was I still haven’t got my Fridays off. So I have kept putting the price up and up till I’ve got rid of some customers, the ones who don’t really value me or don’t really want me in particular.

Anyone will do. And I don’t, why should [00:18:30] I want those customers anyway? And the ones who are really a pain when it comes to price are the ones you want to get rid of anyway, but I would never have put my price up if it hadn’t been for that extra bit of income that was coming in. And that was, that gave me the strength to do what I should have done years ago.

So that was interesting and I learned that and since then I’ve carried on making more and more videos and I now pretty much live off the videos. I do some face to face training and some where I actually get in my car and go there. And then I do a bit of zoom training as well. We [00:19:00] just do an hour of project management.

You can break it down to four lots of one hour. 

I 

Chris Croft: did one happiness zoom session, but you don’t get asked for it much, unfortunately, because it’s so important. So I do a bit of face to face, a bit of zoom, but really I’m trying to give it up. And making videos is the best use of my time. But it’s also What I like doing, because if you do a face to face course or a zoom course, and it’s really good, you think, I wish I’d recorded that.

You have to do it again and again. And [00:19:30] so it’s really, feels nice to make a really good recording of your material, do the best one you can possibly do and edit it and really refine it. It’s a bit like a band playing lots of gigs, but isn’t it nice to go into a studio and make an album that’s perfect.

And you’ve got that forever. So when I’m 90, I’ll go, have you seen this video? And I’ll still have it. That will feel good. 

Elisa Tuijnder: I’m still listening to some of my podcasts from before to learn from them. But also, Oh, I actually totally forgot about [00:20:00] that. It’s also reminding myself. 

Chris Croft: That’s what’s happened. I think I’ve gradually shifted across.

Elisa Tuijnder: Fantastic. I love how it’s a beacon of hope for everybody who’s in a job trying to do a factory job or to being an engineer and not very good at it and not really liking it. To see that, 

Chris Croft: yeah, the search must go on for your ideal job. Cause it’s out there somewhere. And I would never have, in fact, when I was running a plastics factory in South Wales, I had no idea that training was a possibility for me.[00:20:30]

And in fact, video training didn’t even exist back then. You used to have a cassette with John Cleese on you would put into a machine and play. The technology wasn’t even there. So I couldn’t have had that as a sort of 20 year goal or something. But what you can do is a bit like those, that game logger, where you jump across the logs to get across the river.

Every now and then another log comes and you jump to the next one and then you have to wait and there’s another one you jump across. And I think you just, it’s all about taking the chances when they come up, but you, it’s [00:21:00] hard to have a big plan. Somebody watching this, the thing that they might be absolutely brilliant at may not even exist yet.

AI is coming along. That’s going to change everything. Who knows? 

Elisa Tuijnder: A lot of the time, innovation and things like we just discussed earlier as well, somehow in our brains, we tell ourselves that there’s some kind of path towards something, or because we have this. Tendency to have these, that complex things, we need to simplify them, right?

So when we find the things like, Oh, okay, this was always leading to this point. But actually I think we shift them [00:21:30] and adopt and amalgamate all of these different things, and then we get to a point where we’re like, actually, this is what I’m really good at. And, and it’s obvious also really important is really figuring out what happiness means to you.

And also what you like doing at your job. And I think in the beginning of your career, sometimes that’s really hard. I really remember going to university and not really knowing what to do. There’s people who were like, I want to be a doctor. I want to be a dentist. And I just was like, I could be a doctor.

I could be a dentist. I could be a politician. I could [00:22:00] be a writer. I don’t know. I could like all of these things. And I really struggled with that. 

Chris Croft: I did engineering because it was a good general subject. I thought you, you’ll always have a job if you’re an engineer. And then when I started it, I thought, I don’t really like this because it was a lot of maths and very detailed and total respect, by the way, to people who do it, but I just was not good at it.

And I remember thinking, Oh my God, what am I going to do now? And luckily there was management as a way out. And then that was out of the frying pan into the fire. And I thought, what am I going to do now? And I agree. And I think I would say to anybody [00:22:30] who doesn’t quite know where they want to go, it’ll be fine, but you’ve got to keep looking.

The search must continue. And the answer is probably not obvious. Introspection 

Elisa Tuijnder: is also really important. 

Chris Croft: Work out what makes you happy. You can start thinking about how you can do more of that. So if you like chatting to people or something, that takes you towards the training direction more maybe or whatever.

I think we assume that things will make us happy. Buying expensive things or yeah, or holidays we think will make us happy. And sometimes they don’t. Or, and you might think having children would make you [00:23:00] happy. Be very sure before you have them. But it’s, I’m by the way, mine do make me happy, but 

Elisa Tuijnder: just in case they’re listening.

Chris Croft: I think it’s really important to try to work out what does make you happy. I know for example, that sitting in the sunshine makes me happy. We’ve had a few sunny days here. And I was right away on my balcony, sitting in the sun. I’ve got this real sun trap on my balcony and I’m out there as soon as the sun comes out, because I know I like, I think it’s a Norwegian thing because my mother was Norwegian, it’s in the blood.[00:23:30]

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah,

Chris Croft: I know that I like that. 

Elisa Tuijnder: It’s the small things. It doesn’t necessarily need to be a big thing, right? Like you sitting there, sitting in the sun, going for a walk with your dog. Sometimes also really the small things. Does your workplace feel stuck in a rut? Are silos and outdated leadership styles stifling creativity and collaboration?

At Management 3point0, we understand these frustrations. That’s why we offer tailor made training programs designed not just to [00:24:00] enhance skills, but to transform entire organizational mindsets. With our expert guidance and vision, our workplace where barriers are broken down and everyone is empowered to contribute their best.

And leadership not only manages, but also but motivates and inspires. Ready to create a thriving workplace culture? Then visit our website at management3o. com and see how we can help your organization build a happier, more productive workplace.[00:24:30]

Hey, I really want to get to this happiness, this book that you wrote. And first I want to ask, you did all of these negotiation skills and all these very traditional business topics. And then there’s the big book of happiness. There must be something personal or something there from the learnings that you had.

Why did you, why there? And because you also just mentioned there, right? It’s not, I feel for me, happiness in business is almost everything from engagement to all these HR topics, but also all the other [00:25:00] things from operations to things. But. It doesn’t, it’s not as ingrained yet as those things. So for money, it was probably not, it was not like you said in the start.

So why happiness? 

Chris Croft: Yeah, right. Happiness is the most important thing. Why do anything if it doesn’t make you happy? So it is the most important thing there is. But I was oblivious of it as a subject for years. And you’re right. We go on about motivation and we know it’s obvious if people are happier, they’re going to be more creative and they’re probably going to stay longer working for one company and not [00:25:30] leave.

And they’re probably going to work harder if they’re happier. Why would companies not be into happiness? And Maslow, the theory of motivation, he was studying happiness originally, but he just got taken and put into motivation instead. 

Elisa Tuijnder: That sounded nicer in a business context, right? Making 

Chris Croft: your people happy should be the top job in a company really, because then they will do better work for you.

But I was oblivious to happiness until I got a phone call from a TV company saying, [00:26:00] we’ve seen your book on time management, because I was teaching mostly time management back then. And. We’re making a program on happiness and we want to know how time management links with happiness. And nobody had ever asked me that before.

And I just thought, that’s an interesting question because I think there is a, definitely a link between time management and happiness because how you use your time and you should be using your time on things that make you happy and not being stressed and all, because stress is in. It’s a very big detractor of 

Elisa Tuijnder: happiness.

Yeah. 

Chris Croft: [00:26:30] Yeah. So I had a big, long conversation on the phone with them and then They said, can we have another conversation tomorrow? And then they said, can we meet? 

And 

Chris Croft: then they said, we might actually involve you in this TV program. And then they met me and then they said, actually, we’re not going to involve you in the TV program.

And I don’t know whether I said something or, I don’t know. The program never got made, but it was okay because as you say, these things always lead to things. 

And 

Chris Croft: it got me thinking about time management and happiness. And I just became. [00:27:00]Interested in the subject and most things you can structure them into a process, project management process or time management process or whatever.

And I’ve been trying to structure happiness for years now and failing. Because Maslow, I think did pretty well saying it starts with being warm and and then security and then social needs and then feeling important and then using your brain to achieve things at the top. And he’s, that is good, but I felt there must be more to it [00:27:30] than that.

In the end, I just read lots of books on it. Most of the books waste loads of time trying to define happiness, but they don’t really tell you how to get it. 

Yeah. 

Chris Croft: And the engineer in me wants to know, how do I get it? 

Yeah. 

Chris Croft: What do I have to do to harvest more happiness from every day? And I ended up with this great big, long list of things you can do to be happier, be more grateful and help other people and get enough sleep.

And it was just this list of 87 things. 

Mm hmm. [00:28:00]

Chris Croft: And I couldn’t really put it into a structure. I mean, some were to do with other people and some were to do with physical things like sleep and exercise and, but there are some didn’t really fit into a category. And in the end I thought, I’m just going to make the book.

I’ll just have 87 chapters, each chapter will be just a page and it will just say, here’s another thing you can do. And you could just open it at random or you could read the whole thing. And so in the end, that’s. What I did, by the way, the biggest name on happiness, who you, if you can get [00:28:30] him on your podcast, good luck, because he’s quite a recluse is Martin Seligman.

And he’s got a model called, um, uh, I’ve got it written down here, PERMA, which is positive emotions, engagement, relationships, meaning, and achievement. And I think you could probably put all my 87 things into those five buckets. Positive emotions, engagement, relationships, meaning and achievement. But I think in the end, I thought it’s a waste of [00:29:00] time trying to put them into five buckets.

It’s again our 

Elisa Tuijnder: brains needing to do this sort of complex process. Yeah, you still want to break it down. Something like 

Chris Croft: meaning. Well, how do I get meaning? And there’s probably 20 things. And how do I get achievement? There’s 20 things. And how do I get engagement? So in the end, what we want is the 20 things.

So in the end, I gave up on the theory and just said, here’s a great big list of all the things that I’ve found that I think are good. Cause some of the things in the happiness books just say, tell yourself you’re happy and I’m not convinced by that one. So [00:29:30] my collection is more based on engineer and time management.

So things you can actually do, which will lead to more happiness, writing everything down so you don’t feel stressed and have things in your head, for example, is a practical thing that you can do that will make a difference. Or making sure that you go outside into the fresh air. You don’t only breathe more oxygen, but you get brighter sunlight.

The sun is much brighter than indoor lights. 

Elisa Tuijnder: We are very complex houseplants. 

Chris Croft: And that makes you feel much [00:30:00] better. And so there’s also, yeah, there’s all sorts of reasons why going outside every day are good. So in the end, I’ve just come up with a list of all the things that I think are good. And yeah, it’s probably all nicked from everywhere, but I feel that my job is really to collect it all and present you with.

And so that’s what I did in my book. And I wrote the book at the same time as I was doing a LinkedIn learning course on happiness. They didn’t want one by the way, but I persuaded them to let me do a practical happiness tips course [00:30:30] and they wanted it weekly. So we did 52 tips. And I still think if you’ve got LinkedIn learning, that’s a really good course.

I would do it, but, but I had some ones left over and things like that. And so put it all into a book as well. So that’s why it came about. Incidentally, the course did really well. And then they said, can you do part two? And I was like, no, because I’ve put all the best things in here. And if I had several that were a bit similar, I squeezed them in.

Cause I only have 52 buckets to put them [00:31:00] in. I said, no, but I said I could do 52 success tips. And they went, Oh, okay, we’ll have that. So I did that as well. And that course has actually done better than the happiness course. The 

Elisa Tuijnder: happiness. It’s a funny thing with happiness, right? There’s. It’s a word that doesn’t seem to get, as soon as it’s linked, there is a lot out there and there is more movement towards it.

And there are some bigger people who really talking about this happiness and love even within business and these kinds of things. But somehow it’s still a bit of a dirty word as you [00:31:30] call it success. If you call it success, it’s all of a sudden, okay, I will do success. It’s something I think also to do with, Almost if the self-improvement bit about it or this, it’s almost, um, selfish.

Chris Croft: I think it’s partly because happiness, selfish has lots of different meanings. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yes, 

absolutely. So it could just be, 

Chris Croft: it’s very personal. No, no, no. I’m so happy. I’m completely vacuous. It could be that. Mm-hmm. So what does it mean? Whereas there’s wellbeing, but that’s different ’cause that is health. So there isn’t really a good word.

There’s probably a Dutch word. I mean, I dunno. But there, there isn’t really a word [00:32:00] You look is the, is a happiness in Dutch ? Is it? I think the other problem with happiness is it sounds a bit. Bit frivolous. So it’s, I want to be happier. Even though there’s people starving in the world and lots of poor people in my country here, I’m just going to go around being happy.

I want to be happier. And it sounds selfish, even though it’s not, because actually if you’re happier, you make everybody else happier and you have way more creativity and productivity and everything else. But it sounds as if it’s a bit of a. [00:32:30] Sort of first world problem. Oh, I’m not happy enough. I’ve got a posh car, but I’m still not happy.

Oh, can someone help me? And you think, Oh, is that really your biggest problem that your car hasn’t made you happy? So I think that’s maybe why. It’s feels like a dirty word. 

Yeah, 

Chris Croft: actually, it’s the most important thing in the world. Why do anything? And the human race are terrible at it. We spend ages doing stuff that doesn’t make us happy.

We love making ourselves miserable. Somehow going to meetings and sitting in traffic jams and getting annoyed with people and, and have the 

Elisa Tuijnder: [00:33:00] solutions to do things differently and still not take them because. That’s just, then we’re happy and we shouldn’t be happy. 

Chris Croft: We won’t go into politics, but just to say it drives me mad that the world is so hopeless.

All these wars that are going on at the moment, they don’t have to have those wars. They’re just fighting over whose flag flies over a certain Capitol building or something. It doesn’t really matter. If Russia invaded Ukraine, you’d have a Russian flag over Ukraine instead or whatever. [00:33:30] And it’s just. All these wars, they’re just people who are quite similar fighting and they could all be sitting around having a lovely cup of coffee together and playing chess or having a laugh or dancing or playing music.

And the cost of bombing all those buildings, no wonder there’s poverty in the world because we’ve wasted it all on bombs and rebuilding buildings. It’s madness. It’s madness. It drives me mad. But what can you do? Because I don’t think going into politics is the answer. I think that would be the worst job in the world.

I mean, respect people who do. No, 

Elisa Tuijnder: that will not [00:34:00] make you happy. No, but it does. 

Chris Croft: It does bug me, really, that. But anyway. Absolutely. And 

Elisa Tuijnder: this is where I have some slight hope for AI. I try to keep myself engaged there with, uh, Instead of the doom scenarios of AI, maybe AI will actually help us fix some of these problems.

Yeah, I’m an optimist about everything. 

Chris Croft: Yeah, absolutely. When computers came, they said it would put us all out of work and all it’s done is create a whole load of new jobs. And yeah, instead 

Elisa Tuijnder: of putting us out of work. Yeah. 

Chris Croft: And the internet, I know people slag off social media, but the internet is [00:34:30]fantastic in so many ways.

Bringing people together and allowing us to buy and sell things and learn about things. And it’s great. So I think there’s going to be loads of good things coming out of AI. And I think it’ll put people out of a job if they’ve got no imagination anyway, if they’re just doing something really bureaucratic, but I 

Elisa Tuijnder: Which is probably not something you were enjoying anyways.

And so if you can do a job that is more aligned with your creativity or just the things that you like doing, that is actually a good thing. But I know there’s changes. [00:35:00]

Chris Croft: If you look at what’s happened in the past, machines have put manual workers out of work to an extent. They’ve had to become more skillful and do things that machines can’t do.

And now the middle class have got AI coming along and they’re just going to have to be, and people like you and me are just going to have to be better than AI. The courses I make have got to be better than an AI generated course, because you can generate them with AI. And I’ve experimented a bit. And I’ve asked it to write me a blog post and I’ve thought, it’s quite clever.

It’s impressive, but it’s not as good as one that a real person would [00:35:30] write. It doesn’t have the edge and the creativity. And the accents and the 

Elisa Tuijnder: emotions. And you know, it also, it also is only limited, right? So in, in what is in the AI. And I think we just have to work together with the AIs and there’s lots of possibilities there.

Will allow us to, did anybody really 12 hours in a factory? I don’t think it’s good that those things, it wasn’t good that people lost their jobs, but if that allowed them to do something else, maybe we’re just oversimplifying. The type 

Chris Croft: of things that you [00:36:00] automated in the factory were the type of things that people didn’t want to do anyway.

And I hope that’s going to be the case with AI. I mean, who knows? But, but I’m an optimist, so I’m telling myself that there are possibilities and certainly it can help you do your own job better at the moment, but you’d be mad not to embrace it. The cliche is that AI won’t take your job, but your job will be taken by somebody who’s better at using AI than you are.

So you’ve got to make sure you’re good at using it. 

Elisa Tuijnder: That, yeah. And, uh, or at least understand it or work with it. Yeah. [00:36:30] What was your favorite tip from the book? Like when I’m doing the research, I always like when people will have these like lists and books and I’m sort of always like, maybe not favorite or the one that you had the most affinity with or the one that you took away and now practice daily.

Except for the sun and the sun trap and that we’ve already discussed. 

Chris Croft: I think a lot of happiness books are, it’s a slightly long way into it, but there’s a lot of happiness books where, which are not that practical in the end, but there’s one that I think is really good by somebody called Sonia Lubomirsky.

Good [00:37:00] luck spelling Lubomirsky. She’s a god. I think she’s really good. She’s a great presenter as well. She’s fantastic. She’s fantastic. And she’s written a book on happiness, and I can’t remember what it’s called, but it’s something like 

Elisa Tuijnder: She’s the director of the Happiness Center, right? Correct? 

Chris Croft: Yeah. Her book, it’s called just something like How to Be Happy or something.

And it’s really good because it’s all based on research that she herself has actually done. And she identified, there were only about two or three things that she really proved. And one of them was gratitude, doing a [00:37:30] gratitude review at the end of every day. 

Yeah. 

Chris Croft: It’s a brilliant tip, and you don’t even have to write it down.

So my wife and I don’t always do it, but every now and then we remember. And all you do is you just say, between us, let’s, should we try and think of three things? We are grateful for today. Three things that were good that happened today and it might be just that you had lunch with a friend of yours who haven’t seen for a while and isn’t it great that that you’re still in touch with them or whatever.

And it might be something a bit vague like your health, but ideally it would be something you actually did [00:38:00] or something that you are able to do or whatever, or just something you enjoyed. I’m trying to dig up a dead tree stump in my garden and today I, those are 

Elisa Tuijnder: very difficult. Yeah. And I was 

Chris Croft: digging around it and I found two really big fat roots.

And I sawed through these roots. So now you can wiggle it. And tomorrow I’m going to, I got a bit tired after that, but tomorrow I’m going to finish it off. But I really enjoyed that. And that was a little pleasure I got. But if in my review at the end of the day, I look back and I think it was good cutting through those roots with a [00:38:30] saw, it felt good sawing through.

Yeah. 

Chris Croft: Cause I’d already tunneled underneath the root. The root was completely exposed. I could saw through it. You get a second lot of happiness thinking about it again. And so you get double happiness as the time, and then it’s reviewing it. And it also reminds you that you’re lucky and lucky to have a garden and a saw and be physically able to do it, et cetera, et cetera.

So lucky in quite a few ways, really. 

Um, 

Chris Croft: and the dog was keeping me company, watching me do it, thinking I’m mad [00:39:00]or going, Oh, Chris, you’re so impressive. That’s probably 

Elisa Tuijnder: the second thing, right? Yeah. The dogs, the dogs. 

Chris Croft: Can I eat it? Why are you doing this? It was a cat that would probably looks from afar and thought I wouldn’t do it like that.

Mad person. Exactly. So looking back on your habits, reviewing is an easy, quick win and it’s been proved by Sonja Lubomirsky. But I also think projects, starting out to do something big, to build something or achieve something or learn, it might be [00:39:30] learning Italian or it might be a marathon. It was the London marathon last weekend and running a marathon is pretty hellish.

I’ve never done it. 

Elisa Tuijnder: I, it’s a pretty big project there. I’m not doing that. 

Chris Croft: But people love it because it’s a project and they can work on it and they can see a gradual improvement and they’re gradually working towards a goal and then they achieve the goal and they feel good. Yeah. Yeah. I think working towards any kind of goal is, makes us feel good and it starts with having goals.

So goals are important, but then having a project that maybe takes you a bit out [00:40:00] of your comfort zone, like a marathon does, or building your own shed or, or even learning Italian might take you out of your comfort zone, going to evening classes and having to speak to people in Italian. So coming out of your comfort zone gives you a sense of achievement and working on projects, starting out on projects, I think I would.

Have, but, and then the final one we already mentioned a bit is helping other people because helping other people, you feel good. And later on, they’re probably more likely to help you as well, which will also make you feel good. So you get [00:40:30] double from that too. And we definitely are designed as pack animals to help other people.

It’s built into us to do that. Complete strangers. If your car breaks down in Mongolia, complete strangers will help you fix it or pull it out of the mud. It’s, and it’s built into humans to do that. And they enjoy helping you and you enjoy being helped and everybody wins. 

Elisa Tuijnder: And get to know them. Yeah. 

Chris Croft: Yeah.

So if you can find ways to help other people, both at home and at work, then I think those are [00:41:00] big things because a lot of this applies to work just the same as home. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, absolutely. I don’t think we always, I’d always talk about happiness at work. And I mean, that’s also about creating business culture, et cetera, but the tips that we’re talking about right now, they apply in every area of our lives.

And they’re not specific to work, exactly. 

Chris Croft: I think there are some things that are different about work. Your colleagues are sort of similar to your friends, except you can’t choose them. They’re like your relatives. But so finding a way to get on with them and helping, but offering to help people at work, you [00:41:30] can do and should do.

And you may say, that’s going to take more work, but yeah, but you’ll enjoy it more. And I actually think working hard, adds to your happiness as well, actually. Having decided that you’re going to do a job, you should do the best you possibly can because you’ll get more achievement happiness from that and more thanks and things.

So I think people who do the minimum work, I think they’ve missed the point. If you’re going to be there, you might as well do the best job you possibly can. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Or you’re in a very wrong place. Place, because if you really don’t want to do that, then you’re not doing, which makes you [00:42:00] happier that you enjoy or that you’re good at, if it’s something really hard and you, like you doing the maths in the, is a, as an engineer and you’re like, well, no, thank you.

Then you probably not in the right profession or not. And you might be unwell on your way, but, but yeah, it’s also a sign to you if you really don’t want to do that. 

Chris Croft: So I was trying to think what’s different about work. And I think there’s two things. I think one is. Security, insecurity, because in your life, you’re just, there you are, but your work, you’re always a bit worried that you might get fired.[00:42:30]

Or is it just me? There’s always that, you never feel totally safe. Because you’ve 

Elisa Tuijnder: been fired a few times. 

Chris Croft: I started to think it was me and it was in a way, because I think I was always destined to be self employed. But having proved myself now and done really well with my video courses, I’ve, I’ve proved that they could have got more out of me if they’d managed me better.

The potential was there and they never found it. And that’s their fault, not mine. That’s what I’m going to say. Um, but I do think bosses, I read somewhere that the biggest cause of unhappiness at work is, is bosses. 

Elisa Tuijnder: People don’t [00:43:00] leave jobs, they leave bosses. 

Chris Croft: Yes. And I think that is one thing about work that is different.

And I think I would say work really hard. If your boss doesn’t appreciate that, then leave. Don’t settle for a job where you’re not appreciated and then you end up just not doing a very good job and not working very hard. You’re wasting five days a week if they don’t appreciate you, but you’ve got to work hard and do a good job.

But if you do that and you’re not appreciated, then vote with your feet. There’s plenty more jobs out there. Get another one [00:43:30] before you leave the first one. But I just think the search must go on for a good employer. 

Elisa Tuijnder: And get six months of paid leave. Well, if you can do it 

Chris Croft: and get another job in four. Yeah, that’s the idea, isn’t it?

And then job security. I don’t know that, I think probably. Back to the pyramid there. I like the idea of being T shaped, I don’t know if you’ve heard about that, of having depth in one area, but width as well, that probably will make you more secure if you could do a so 

Elisa Tuijnder: Management 3point0 practice as well.

Chris Croft: Yep. I would have my CV [00:44:00] always, my, always ready typed. I think the Americans call it a resume, don’t they? So that if anything happens, I can get another job. Or if somebody says. Hey, we’re looking for somebody like you. Have you got a CV? Yep, here it is. So you can take the chance if it comes up and I, and nowadays 

Elisa Tuijnder: with link it in, it’s very easy, right?

It’s easy, easy to find another job. Technically have your, and also you technically have your resume, uh, or your CV or whatever people call it, other fancy words. You basically have that ready. It’s there, isn’t it? Your profile is there, 

Chris Croft: but never live in fear of losing [00:44:30] your job. ’cause you can always get another one that’s probably better.

And you have to believe in yourself that you could get another job. But the other thing, of course, is to have a little side hustle going on and do something in your spare time, just buying and selling on eBay or making pottery at weekends or something, because that could grow into a full time thing. But even if it doesn’t, it’s giving you a feeling of achievement outside of just your job and perhaps a bit of extra money as well.

So if anything happened to your job, you might be all right. So I’m a big believer in side hustles as [00:45:00] well. 

Elisa Tuijnder: It’s good to expand your horizon as well. 

Chris Croft: Yeah. So I think there are some differences, but most of it is the same. Like we haven’t talked about negative emotions at all, but I do think, for example, trying to get control of your negative emotions, say anger or worry or whatever your pet one is, that’s the same at work as it is in your personal life.

And I think a really good happiness tip is to work out what your top negative emotion is and do something about it. So my wife worries a lot about things. [00:45:30] And what I’ve discovered is that you actually choose negative emotions because you think you get a payoff. So you choose to worry because you think things are less likely to go wrong if you worry about them.

But you’re almost thinking them into existence if you worry. If you worry that somebody’s going to say something to you, that it’s more likely to happen. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy. Yes. Or if you worry you’re going to do a bad talk, you’re more likely to do a bad talk. And worrying is almost a substitute for planning and [00:46:00] action because instead of that you just sit there worrying.

And so the payoff you think you’re going to get is a false one. And jealousy. We think if we’re jealous that we’ll get what they’ve got, but it, no, you’re not. You have to do something about it. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. They’re very exhausting emotions. 

Chris Croft: Yeah. So I think working out what your negative emotions are and doing something about the top one, at least, I think is a really interesting happiness tip that I’ve not seen anywhere else.

I’m just seeing if Seligman’s got it in. He’s got positive [00:46:30] emotions, but so you could say he will also talk about negative 

Elisa Tuijnder: ones. He gets to talk about the negative ones. They really need the negative to also have the positive. 

Chris Croft: Yeah, but that’s a whole different 

Elisa Tuijnder: box that we 

Chris Croft: Well, that’s a whole other subject.

Yeah. I don’t think you can completely get rid of negative emotions, by the way. No, and we shouldn’t also. And a bit of worry might be good. But I think the main thing is not to fan the fire. So if you get a feeling of worry, you should think, Oh, I’m worried about that. So I will take action and get rid of the worry by doing some planning and rehearsing or whatever.[00:47:00]

Rather than just thinking I’m feeling worried. So I’m now just going to wallow in worry and do nothing except for worry. Or I’m feeling a bit annoyed about that bloke who pulled out in front of me. So I’m just going to wallow in anger. I’m going to feel the flames and get in a rage. No, feel the anger and then think I’ll.

You know, I’ll either do something about it or I won’t. You might feel angry that people are starving in Africa so that you might think I’m going to send some money. That’s great, but you might feel angry about the other driver and think [00:47:30] I’m just going to get rid of that. I’m going to push that away again because if I get angry, he’s won and it doesn’t help anybody.

Anchor will only poison me. He won’t even know. Yeah, that’s right. I could hoot my horn, but he’s probably just going to think I’m an idiot. And 

Elisa Tuijnder: your, and your day’s ruined. Hey Chris, before, before we, we have to unfortunately start rounding up, but, um. Time 

Chris Croft: goes, doesn’t it? 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yes, time always goes, exactly. I wondered, because that’s the thing with happiness, and also you’ve reached so many people with your, with your books, with your horses, with your [00:48:00] videos.

I wondered, Especially around happiness. Did anyone ever come back to you and say, that’s changed everything for me? What’s been the feedback for you? And is there any particular story that you can pull out there to say, okay, this was so impactful and I’d really love this. 

Chris Croft: I wish I had a great story.

Elisa Tuijnder: You’ve not prepared one. The thing is, when you do, 

Chris Croft: it’s the difference between a trainer and a coach. Yeah. Because as a trainer, I turn up, talk for a day and I go again. And they 

Elisa Tuijnder: don’t, yeah. And I don’t 

Chris Croft: know if they’re going to [00:48:30] do it or not. And in fact, I suspect that most of them probably won’t do most of it.

Very occasionally I see people again and they say, I’ve always remembered you said that thing about worrying and I’ve, and occasionally people go, I’ve always remembered you said that, but you don’t get much feedback. Then if you make a video course and put it out there today, 20, 000 people have viewed my videos.

I don’t know who they are, but I get probably 10 emails a day. From people saying, Oh my God, I loved your course. So I was [00:49:00] like wondering, like, you must get some feedback. Every day I get, and they go, I hope it’s all right to say, I really love your course. And she says, yeah. I love that. So feel free to send me a message on LinkedIn or whatever.

It’s great. How about how your life has changed? How their life has changed? Yeah. No, I really like it. Go to the next podcast. Yeah. And, and people have said things like, I just felt I was drifting through my life, but I’ve watched your course and now I’ve got a plan and know what I’m doing. Fantastic. And so I get lots of little really nice little bits of [00:49:30] feedback rather than meeting individuals who say, you’ve completely changed everything.

Yeah. 

Chris Croft: So it, that is great. But it’s really hard to know, and I’m just putting it out there because I’m pretty sure it makes a small difference to lots of people, rather than a big difference to a few. But I think there probably are a few who it totally blows their mind. I find that almost scary, actually.

That you have so much 

Elisa Tuijnder: impact. Yeah, 

Chris Croft: who do everything I say, I’m thinking. But I think, why not? Because I haven’t made this up. You’ve done this 

Elisa Tuijnder: with the best of [00:50:00] intentions as well. 

Chris Croft: Yeah, and also I’ve Pulled it from lots of really great thinkers like Lubomirsky and Seligman who’ve done loads of research.

And if I can publicize that a bit to people and get their message out, then that’s great, and I have put a bit of my own spin on it in places. I hope I’ve enhanced it slightly, standing on the shoulder of giants and all that. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Hey, Chris, when we, my final question, or at the end of the podcast, we always like to leave our listeners with something tangible.

We talked about a bunch of practices actually. So maybe we can, [00:50:30] instead of leaving peeping with a practice, maybe leave people with a key piece of advice. Cause we’ve talked about a bunch of the practices already throughout the podcast. Is there anything you kind of want to highlight and leave our listeners with?

Chris Croft: Um, by the way, if you want to know what my morning routine is, have a look on my blog, because my morning routine is terrible. I just, I don’t get up at 5am and meditate. Oh, you do not. You’re not 

Elisa Tuijnder: one of those. No, I get up at nine 

Chris Croft: o’clock and I eat Coco Pops and then I sit on the toilet checking my emails.

But yeah, I just [00:51:00] thought, I thought I’m going to tell the truth. But I think, I think if I was going to give one bit of advice, I mean, cause I’m a big believer in sleep, got to get enough sleep. People go, how are you so energetic? And the answer is cause I have loads of sleep. I think most people go through their life tired.

Top one. I think my second from top is do a friend’s audit. Make a list of all your friends and get rid of half of them. And you don’t have to tell them, but just let them fade away. Because there’s not enough time. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Thanks for the years. Yeah, I 

Chris Croft: know. You’ve grown apart. [00:51:30] We do grow apart. There’s not. And some people do not serve you actually.

I just think there’s not enough time to spend with your best friends. And therefore. Get rid of some and spend more time with the good ones. People who actually don’t wish 

you well, yeah. 

Chris Croft: The ones that really make you happy, you’ve got to spend more time with them. I think my top one is possibly to dabble in lots of things.

And not try to master one thing. 

Elisa Tuijnder: He can never be a master in anything. Never master anyway. 

Chris Croft: Even Roger Federer has [00:52:00] not mastered tennis and he’s got the closest. Exactly. And he can’t, there are shots he can’t do that annoy him. Ah, I can’t do that. And when you get as good as him, it means you’ve got to play against Rafael Nadal.

And then you’re still probably not going to win every time. And it’s not going to lead to winning. or Mastery. And I learned this from a game called the Inner Game of Tennis, which is really good. And it’s not only about tennis, because 

Elisa Tuijnder: it sounds like it though. Yeah. 

Chris Croft: But I mean, you could spend all day, every day trying to get good at tennis or golf or the saxophone or whatever.

to the point where it becomes no fun [00:52:30] anymore. 

Elisa Tuijnder: There’s always going to be someone better or even the more you learn, the more you learn that there’s actually way more to learn. So I think 

Chris Croft: definitely play tennis once a week or twice, have fun, especially in the outdoors, because you get sunshine with your friends, you have a laugh, you get all the other benefits.

Not all 

Elisa Tuijnder: the friends though, right? Like we have, we’ve called a few friends. The ones you 

Chris Croft: like, not the ones who cheat and claim it was out when it was in and things, but then And so you get all those things, you get exercise, you sleep better and things, but as well as the tennis, why [00:53:00] not write some poetry and learn the saxophone and go surfing, or just do a load of other things, do lots of things badly, or quite well.

And that will make you, so I, I play the saxophone in a band and I’m really not very good. I admire John Coltrane. I love listening to him. I think he’s fantastic. I will never be as This much of John Coltrane, his little finger of John Coltrane, I know that, but I play well enough to be able to show off in a band and make people in the [00:53:30] audience happy.

And I’m on my knees. And that makes 

Elisa Tuijnder: you happy. People love that. 

Chris Croft: And so I’m, I don’t really practice ever, although I’ve just found this in a pile of old things. I’m going to read this. For the listeners, 

Elisa Tuijnder: it’s a jazz handbook. Yeah. How to be an improviser. 

Chris Croft: So I’m going to have a look at that. And I’m actually going on a tennis course at the weekend.

So I’m doing that because it’s interesting. And so, I don’t want to be, I’d like to be a little bit better at tennis, but I don’t want to be Roger Federer, because it wouldn’t make me happy. to happen. It’s not going to happen, is it? I’m sorry, Chris. I’m made to tell you. Not going to happen at [00:54:00] my age. So, I think dabbling in a lot of things, tennis, saxophone, whatever it is you want to do.

Whatever floats your boat. Yeah. And I think that would be my advice, is dabble in lots of things. Don’t try to be the best in the world. Don’t worry about that. It’s not going to happen. It won’t make you happy. Even if it does, a gold medal in the Olympics won’t make you happy. Anyway, just do a bit of sailing for the fun of it.

Go with your friends, mess around. You can have a little bit of a race if you want, but just don’t get. But it’s not about being competitive. It’s about. Doing it for the fun of it. [00:54:30] I think that would probably be my top tip, but there’s a load of others all in my little book, which is very cheap on Kindle.

Elisa Tuijnder: Exactly. I was just about to say, Chris, whenever they, when they want to find your book, find your courses, where do people start? 

Chris Croft: Yeah. If you’ve got access to LinkedIn learning, that’s great. Or you can nag your boss to give you access to LinkedIn because LinkedIn learning. You get access to everything in the library for 20 quid a month or whatever.

And it’s, there’s a lot in there, but you can buy courses one at a time from udemy. com. U D E M [00:55:00] Y. com. So I’ve got a happiness course on there that you can get for 20 quid. And that’s pretty good value. But then there are books and you can just, you just go onto Amazon and put in Chris Croft and you can see all my efforts and I’ve just very recently finished a book, which is my first really original book.

Most of my books are a good summary of everything you need to know. Of everything 

Elisa Tuijnder: else, yeah. 

Chris Croft: Which is fine, but this one called Seven Paths to Happiness and Two Dead Ends. 

It’s 

Chris Croft: really about careers and happiness. It’s [00:55:30] about should you be self employed? Is going up the corporate ladder a good idea? Should you just mess around for 10 years in your 20s?

And so I think there are lots of options and it talks about the pros and cons and which path you should choose. So that is a really new way of looking at happiness, which we haven’t talked about at all on the podcast, but it’s okay. Cause get the 

Elisa Tuijnder: book, get it on Kindle 

Chris Croft: or yeah, or get me back. And so I’ve been trying to think of the overlap between happiness and careers and personality, because different types of people will prefer different parts, won’t they?

Should you have [00:56:00] a niche where you’re an expert? I don’t know. It’s all on Amazon, put me into Amazon, you’ll see me there. 

Elisa Tuijnder: My Kindle is bursting with books I need to explore. I 

Chris Croft: know. Yeah. Now I’ve got a bit of spare time. I’m sitting in the sun and I’m reading 

Elisa Tuijnder: at the 

Chris Croft: same time. That’s one of my things that makes 

Elisa Tuijnder: me really happy.

Chris Croft: Yeah. I love reading. All the ideas of the world are in books, aren’t they? Why would you not? My plumber, who’s just put in a really new nice bathroom for me, he said, Chris, I’ve never read a book in my life. He said, I’ve never read a book. [00:56:30] I’m seasick. What are you doing? 

Elisa Tuijnder: Maybe that’s what makes them happy.

Chris Croft: Well, yeah, but. There will be books he would like, whatever they are, whether they’re thrillers or whether they’re about plumbing. I don’t know. There’ll be books on famous plumbing disasters or whatever the future, I mean, but he, yeah, the whole world. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Help Mario rescues princesses, et cetera, those are also poems, right?

Chris Croft: You’ve got to read books. Yeah. 

Elisa Tuijnder: All right, Chris. Unfortunately, I’m going to have to let you go. So thank [00:57:00]you so much for coming on the podcast. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you for having me. 

Chris Croft: It’s been really great. I look forward 

Elisa Tuijnder: to looking into your new book as well. 

Chris Croft: Goodbye everybody who’s been listening and watching.

See you again. 

Elisa Tuijnder: You’ve been listening to the Happiness at Work podcast by Management 3point0, where we are getting serious about happiness. Be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And if you enjoy our shows, don’t be shy, write us a review, [00:57:30] share the happiness with your colleagues, family, or friends, follow us on Twitter, Facebook, or LinkedIn under Management [00:58:00] 3point0.