The world’s largest trial of the four-day workweek was recently conducted in the UK. And the results were hard to ignore. Many participants said that “no amount of money” could get them to go back to the way things were. 

Today we sit down with Juan Gutiérrez Plaza, an executive with the London-based company Scoro, which has fully and successfully adopted a four-day workweek. We talk about its implementation, its impacts on employee happiness and productivity, and Plaza’s recommendations for other leaders who are considering the move from five days to four.

We also discuss some additional Scoro initiatives, which are providing employees with more choice, agency, and flexibility in their careers. 

Learn more about Juan and Scoro here: https://www.scoro.com/blog/life-at-scoro-interview-with-vp-of-engineering-juan-gutierrez-plaza/

Key Points

• The four-day workweek – what does it look like at Scoro? 
• Taking all metrics into account – not just productivity
• The power of choice and taking a dynamic approach to teams 
• Practical tips on how to get started with your own four-day workweek 

**In a post-pandemic world, workers want to retain their flexibility and have the best of both worlds: an office to meet and collaborate in, and the freedom to work remotely. The new norm is “hybrid,” but what does this mean in practice? What are the challenges and opportunities of this form of working, and how can leaders rethink collaboration formats and decision-making? To answer these and many more questions, we have created a module on remote and hybrid collaboration. 

To learn more and find upcoming workshop dates, visit www.management30.com/module. 

Transcript

*Please note that the transcript has been automatically generated and proofread for mistakes. But remains in spoken English, and some syntax and grammar mistakes might remain.

Elisa Tuijnder: [00:00:00] The world’s largest trial of the four day work week was recently conducted in the UK, and results were hard to ignore. Most managers and employees who participated in the trial opted to continue it, and many participants said that no amount of money could get them to go back to the way things were.

Today we speak with an executive from a London-based company that has fully and successfully adopted a four day work week and has paired it with other policies offering more choice, agency, and flexibility to their workforce. We’ll discuss those initiatives, how they were implemented, and their impact on employee retention, productivity, and off course

happiness.

Before we dive in, you are listening to The Happiness At [00:01:00] Work Podcast by Management 3.0 where we are getting serious about happiness.

I’m your host, Elisa Tuijnder, Happiness Enthusiast and Management 3.0 team member. In this podcast, we share insights from industry experts, influencers, and thought leaders about what it takes to be happy, motivated, and productive at work, so that loving your job becomes the norm and not the exception. We will be publishing every fortnight on Friday, so be sure to tune in and subscribe wherever you get your

podcasts.

Our guest today is Juan Gutierrez Plaza, vice President of Engineering at Scoro, an end-to-end work management software company based in London. Thank you so much for joining us

Juan Gutiérrez Plaza: today, Khan. [00:02:00] Thank you very much. It’s absolutely my pleasure.

Elisa Tuijnder: Great. Hey, so I’m really excited to talk about all the great things that are happening as Scoro, which is a lot.

But here on the podcast we always start with the same question, and that is what does happiness mean to you?

Juan Gutiérrez Plaza: That’s a tough one. I hope that a big one. Yeah. Yeah. I hope the questions become easier later on. For me is is two things and I for me it’s very important that those two things are together.

One is having some type of meaning or purpose. That you are part of something that, that you have an objective, something to, look at like further. And the second things are the small things. Those are super important for me. It’s like I cannot have the, or far away perspective and, very small things that make your day great.

Playing with my kid, like just his a smile I don’t know, enjoying a good food. Having a chit chat with my colleagues at work. These [00:03:00] small things actually make my day definite. So those two things put together, that’s happiness. Yeah. The

Elisa Tuijnder: small things matter. Absolutely. Yeah. Hey, so hopefully these questions get easier for you now, and I think they will, because this is, this is what you guys are working on.

Scoro announced that it was, fully adopting a four day workweek last year in July of 2022. Yeah. I wanna ask you first what led to that decision? What was the process up to it? I’m assuming that didn’t just pop up in a vacuum and there was a lot of talk before that, right?

Juan Gutiérrez Plaza: Absolutely not. In fact, it has been there for a long time because our founder, the CEO of the company, Fred, has always believed in this concept and he has been thinking of implementing this for years and never take the step, right? And then finally last year we were talking about it and we said, Hey, let’s just do it.

We have been thinking about it [00:04:00] for years. Let’s do it. And I think it was just the correct moment and we started looking at it more and more in deep. And we took a decision by June we will make it. And this was announced in end of the year in December. So it took for a six months preparation to actually get it done.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, it’s not a it, I assume that comes with a lot of changes and processes, et cetera. Yeah. So I wondered whether because the nonprofit group, four day week global joined researchers and employers to run a massive trial of the four-day workweek in the uk where you are based last year. So around at the same time when Scholar announced its own program.

I wondered whether you guys were part of this initiative or trial, or maybe some way influenced. You said that yeah, it was in the brain of the founder for a long time, or in the process of the founder for a long time, but maybe that was the push you needed or was that something completely coincidental?

Juan Gutiérrez Plaza: Something completely [00:05:00] coincidental. Okay. Non, non-related at all. In fact, like the founder is a true believer on using the time the best way, and actually our software is basically built around this concept. And for him, he has always said that by using the time correctly, we can use our time in whatever thing we want to do, like using it for whatever we want.

So he always believed in that concept. And the, when we started this was more like internal conversation about, hey, we can really do this. Like our software is helping us a lot in order to get this done. Why haven’t we done it before? Why don’t we do this step? And we took the step. And then soon after, or pretty much at the same time, there was this thing in the UK but the decision was completely unrelated to this.

Yeah.

Elisa Tuijnder: I think what’s also super brilliant about what you’re doing is that it’s not just. It’s not just [00:06:00] adopting the four day workweek, you’re also being incredibly transparent about how it was, why you were doing it, how you’re doing it, documenting it, all the processes and objective on this public facing webpages so other people can learn from it.

Was that a conscious decision? And why did you guys find that important? Yes.

Juan Gutiérrez Plaza: I think we, this is an interesting question, right? Cause we’re at a podcast that is called happiness at work. Yeah. But. Why happiness only at our work if we can make people happy in other work as well. So why to keep this for ourselves.

So basically the idea for us was, hey we can do this. We can document this. And since we are very conscious about the time, if we can help some other companies basically doing the same thing and saving time. Making their employees happier. Why not to do it is a win-win for everybody, right? So for us was a thing like, Hey, we can help others, so let’s just do it.

[00:07:00] And save time for other companies. Make them see that this is the way to go in the future for everybody and saving them time and effort and problems.

Elisa Tuijnder: Learn by example. Hey, can you tell us a little bit more about how the transition went? Cuz I’m sure you know there’s people out there like your founder, who’ve been contemplating this for a long time, are afraid of the scale of disruptiveness or difficulty.

So if you could explain to us how the process went at Scoro, that would be really

Juan Gutiérrez Plaza: good. Yeah, absolutely. I’m happy to. So this started. As I said during the Christmas. And we consciously took six months to do that. We wanted to have a deadline in order to make us ourself see it as a, something tangible, something we want to achieve.

Yeah. Like an objective. But we were also aware that this is not easy. We need to contemplate or we need to think of many things to make it. [00:08:00] Easy. To make the transition easy? No, there are many things to, to think of, not only internally, but also with the customers as well. Cause after all, our customers work five days a week, most of them, right?

So we started thinking how we work internally, where our time is going. For instance, what are those areas that we are putting our time, but they are not really important. As an example, the meetings, we had a lot of meetings. I think companies in general have a lot of meetings. Are those meetings really important?

Eh? Can we have something different? Can we actually get less meetings or be more, use less time in the meetings and actually be more productive? How can we support the people in this transition? What are the numbers? So the tangible facts that we have in the company now we are measuring that we want to have before and actually after to see how the things changed.

Basically, all these things were taken into account [00:09:00] and we set actually what we call a squats. Internally to work in different areas. As an example, me personally, I was on the meeting squad, so I was taking care of how we can get the best out of the meetings. How can we reduce this time? How can we make that we have way more focused time for the people.

What they really need is to focus in order to get this efficiency higher and be more productive. This was one example of a squad. Another one was, for instance, more on the legal area because now we work 32 hours a week. But how this matches with the legislation in Estonia in the UK, how can we make this work?

As an example. Another one was about automation. So how can we automate repetitive things that we are doing manually currently, and a lot of time [00:10:00] goes there. How to get this burden from the people so that time is safe. So all these things were taken into account. One of the things that were very important for us, as I mentioned before, were the metrics.

And what I can tell you is that we were lacking in a sense because since we are using our own product and our own product is all about work and type management, we had a lot of metrics before. So basically what we did is to choose what are those things we want to follow. We had already the data beforehand and actually be prepared to, whenever we do the change, follow up those numbers to see how the things go, to see if this is really what we expect or not.

So it took quite a bit of time. As I mentioned before, it was about six months, so if you want to do it basically smooth. You need to put some time into it and some investment. Yeah. And I want to [00:11:00] make this clear as well. Yeah. It’s

Elisa Tuijnder: not from one day to the other. Yeah. Can I ask you how it works?

Practically, cuz we’re talking about the four day work week, but the four day work week could be different from one company to another. Can I ask you like, what, which does that mean that people can choose which days they’re not working? Or can they divide it over the five days or, what does it look like in practice?

Yeah. And I think. As a follow up there as well, have people lost any part of their wages? Cuz it’s easy to say go to a four day work week, but if they actually only get paid for four days, that’s a different story,

Juan Gutiérrez Plaza: right? Yes. This is another example of a squad. For instance. There was a squad that was focusing on this, what type of four days work week we want.

What is the day we choose? Do we do the freedom of choose or not? So from the very beginning we said that this was a true four days work week, meaning that we have 32 hours. A week, no cutting wages. Basically all the benefits, salaries [00:12:00] all basically remain the same. We just reuse the week. Yeah. Great. So I would say that this is a true, actually moving forward.

Yeah. Yeah. And then we were discussing a lot, what would be the better approach, and finally we decided that the free day was going to be on Friday for everybody with just very small exceptions that going to cover now. Why one given day? Because as we are now working only four days a week, we wanted to maximize the time that people are actually communicating together and they are together as a team.

We thought that if we give the choice and can, obviously giving the choice has a lot of benefits as well. It might happen that in some teams, people working together might be maybe one day or not even a day if they, it is a small team, right? And we believe that this is. Actually quite important, having this time together, this this time as a team together.

So we choose one given day that was Fridays, except [00:13:00] some very specific teams like support. Why? Because we have customers that worl five days a week. So in support, what they do is do some type of rotation so people are rotating, working on Fridays, and if someone works on Friday, Actually they are going to have the Monday off.

Why? Because then we ensure that absolutely everyone in the company is going to enjoy a weekend of three full days. And then we believe that this would be a quite good approach actually. The feedback has been great so far.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. Let’s talk about that feedback. What were the results that you saw?

And, we are here, happiness at work, right? What did your employees say about the new work

Juan Gutiérrez Plaza: week? I, I guess it’s not a surprise if I said no, they simply love it. They are really happy about this. One of the things that we were mentioning is the internal, like the NPS obviously [00:14:00] grew. So when we talk informally with the people and we ask about feedback, when they said that they wouldn’t change for, anything, that even if they get 20% more in another company, they wouldn’t change. Something that is interesting as well is that we see a certain correlation with age yeah.

So for the younger, the people are, they are more willing to work more and earn more. And basically as the age grows, It’s the opposite. This is a correlation, but still for young people, obviously they would prefer to work as well for this a week. What else? I can tell you on the feedback that all in all, it has been really amazing.

Another stats that we are following is, for instance, the churn, the employee retention, which has grown as well, and the number of applications we have [00:15:00] has probably grown, has grown tremendously. Yeah, just to give you a few examples.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, exactly. And I’m sure that will last for few years until, hopefully at some point this is, becomes more.

Wider and then Yeah, and then the churn and probably levels out again. Yeah. Can I ask how it was for you personally? How did you, how has it impacted your work week and your work life balance?

Juan Gutiérrez Plaza: Eh,

Yeah. I’m super, super happy. So I can tell you a little bit about me.

I’m married. I have two kids, and my wife is working normal week, normal hours, days, Fridays. My two kids are on the school. So out of the blue, I found out myself on a Friday. That was entirely for me. And I could say, wow, what? I have time to do whatever I want. And that’s spectacular, because sometimes when, when I have free [00:16:00] time, I spend the time with the family.

It’s not like the time for you. But Friday is for me and I can just enjoy. I’m for instance, learning Estonian now using the Fridays. Great for that and it is marvelous. I can simply say that. It is awesome.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, having that time, and I actually quite like this approach that everybody has this Friday because, I also work four days a week, but I will work every day and then have a few hours there and a few hours there.

But I, if you are really working in a team it really feels like a day off then properly instead of. Shifting with hours a little bit, which is also great, don’t get me wrong. Yeah. In comparison to the five day work week. Hey, so the question I bet on everyone’s mind listening now and you know what always is, the counter-argument is, has productivity or even, profitability been impacted by this change at all?

Has, how are the [00:17:00] metrics there?

Juan Gutiérrez Plaza: They are good. They are okay. We cannot say that there is no impact whatsoever. There is some small impact, and we knew that from the get go. We assumed that from the very beginning. So actually thought okay, even if there is, we are reducing 20%.

If out of this 20% basically we have 10%, it is still worth. But actually what we are talking about is like approximately, like we feeling like 5%, but this is in performance, but there are much more than that. And we talk about this before, it’s about the happiness, it’s about the, and the retention.

Yeah. It’s about getting new talent. As an example. It’s also about marketing as well, of course. So there are many things that play. And if you count all this, not only the performance, it’s by, it’s clearly a win. Yeah.

Elisa Tuijnder: Some of these [00:18:00] are less easy to quantify, but in time you will see, like you said, your churn your attention, your attraction rates, everything your happiness makes, makes it all

Juan Gutiérrez Plaza: better.

Elisa Tuijnder: In a post pandemic world workers want to retain their flexibility and have the best of both worlds, an office to meet and collaborate in while flexibly working outside the office. The new norm is hybrid, but what does this mean in practice? What are the challenges and opportunities of this form of working, and how do leaders rethink collaboration formats and decision making?

To answer these questions and many more, we have created a module on remote and hybrid collaboration. To learn more and find upcoming workshop dates, visit management30.com/modules.[00:19:00]

Hey, so the Four Day Workweek isn’t the only kind of novel approach or innovative approach at Scoro. So in your field of engineering, you also offer employees a choice driven framework. Pursuing new roles, pursuing new opportunities. Can you explain what that actually entails?

Juan Gutiérrez Plaza: Yes, of course.

So we are using a biodynamic approach on software development. Actually, We are changing teams very dynamically. So we have a structure that is more static, is basically a big team and inside of the big team, there are teams that are created depending on the needs, and they are moving a lot. So there is a team of three persons that they are actually focusing on something for one, two months basically to solve a [00:20:00] problem that is specific and they focus only on that. And when they finish, there is some other team created and so on. So it’s very based on basically objectives. And the focus is very important because of what I mentioned before on the four days work week. We need to ensure the focus, and that’s on the process perspective, which by the way, this is based on a process from Pipedrive.

Has been covered in Unfixed as well. That I’m yeah. But what I wanted to focus here is on the, what we call the power of choice, and is that inside that environment, actually the engineers can choose what they do. They can choose what is the mission they want to participate in.

So there are many missions in parallel. And there is some touch in this area, some touch in others area, some touch in this area, and these missions are pitched. These missions are announced and actually the engineers can select which one they want to work on. And magnificent that’s really give [00:21:00] this most of the engineers to say, Hey, I’m really motivated to work in this mission.

This looks fantastic. I want to learn this technology and I want to join there. And I really like them. Mission, like the objective, the goal of this mission, and I want to participate there. And having this, having the people in this status where they really believe they are really committed, they are really passionate on what they do, makes a huge difference.

And then the second thing on the same area is that it’s not only about what they do in the sense of the area of expertise, technologies and so on. But it’s also about the role as such. So the missions have what we call the cap times. So they are responsible of that. Yeah. Of that particular mission.

And this is a rotating role, which means that anybody can take this role if they’re interested. So with that, you give the choice to the people to, in a very safe environment. [00:22:00] Experiment something new. You don’t need to be a senior or a lead to actually be the captain of a mission. You can even be a junior.

Why not? Eh, and then you can uncover yourself. What are the skills needed for that? You can learn those skills or you can realize why not that I tried this, but this is not for me. I’m more of a type of a person who really would like to do the technical stuff rather than taking this leadership approach.

But that gives a playground for the people to play in a very safe environment and also makes a difference because they can experiment easily. They go outside of the comfort zone without feeling threatened, and it’s something that actually they love.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah.

It gives them autonomy and agency. Which is absolutely great motivator.

Absolutely. Yeah. Have you seen, if you really seen this as well I wondered from the business side, are you, are people [00:23:00] more, engaged? Are they more innovative, more productive? Are they just more comfortable in their roles because they’ve chosen them,

Juan Gutiérrez Plaza: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

Because they have chosen them, and not only they have chosen them is that they have tried something else and they saw that. Okay, the idea I had about this other side was X and it is actually Y and I was so wrong and now my mind is completely different. But since I know now and I make decision, I made a conscious decision with the knowledge, not with assumptions.

And that’s very powerful. And of course that makes people feel more comfortable with the choices they make. Yeah,

Elisa Tuijnder: absolutely. I hear often or on a regular basis Hey, this is something, unfix and agile and all these things that works really well in software companies. And especially, the speaking and choosing of battles that works well there, but it doesn’t work in my industry.

How do you I [00:24:00] know you’re not working in these other industries, but do you feel like a framework like this freedom of choice, et cetera, do you feel that it could work in other industries or is it. It’s limited.

Juan Gutiérrez Plaza: I don’t see, I don’t see why. No, why not? Yeah, extrapolate this.

I’m not talking about software development specifically. So in, in many industries, I assume they have some objectives. They have problems that needed to be solved in order to solve those problems. They need some type of teams. In those teams. They need some type of skills. So why couldn’t it work?

Yeah. If we supply the ideas, the principles on them, I could perfectly see without knowing the details that in principle, of course, it could work. And the power of choice. Why not? If you have these elements, there are different things to be done. You have certain people with certain skills that they can go to different areas.

Why not to give [00:25:00] the possibility of those peoples to choose. And feel this passion or commitment towards what they do. Yeah. I think it can be easily extrapolated toward in industries. Yeah. Why not?

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. Yeah, I think so too. I just wanted to hear someone else say it.

Juan Gutiérrez Plaza: Okay.

Elisa Tuijnder: Someone with knowledge in the industry.

Let’s just say it like that. So how long have you guys been working like this? Was this also something that’s been going on for a long time, or how did that change come about? We

Juan Gutiérrez Plaza: started about one year and a half ago.

Elisa Tuijnder: Okay. Also fair. Fairly recently. Lots of changes at Scoro.

Juan Gutiérrez Plaza: Nice. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. The change happened because basically Scoro has been growing quite organically during the last years.

And we reached a size where this make sense. For this environment to work, you need certain flexibility and certain size of the company. [00:26:00] And we reached that, eh, obviously I got a lot of learnings from PipeDrive where this was invented and I saw that, we were a quite similar company, like the context was similar, size already was there and we needed that focus.

Yeah. We needed the focus and we needed the flexibility because this is another thing that it gives you very much the flexibility. They basically, as a company, be able to change and prioritize and change the course of actions. And focus without changing your organization. So this provides a very, makes the company really flexible and adaptable.

And I thought we were in that perfect point to get this started and basically we started, yeah, one year and a half ago.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. Fantastic. Yeah great time to be at Scoro. Lots of different things going on, but very good things. Hey, I wanna take you [00:27:00] back to this four day work week.

I wondered whether there were any other unexpected changes that already have come to light, but maybe it might be a bit too early. But sometimes we implement changes and then something comes about that actually was totally not anticipated.

Juan Gutiérrez Plaza: The only thing I can tell you something I didn’t expect.

Is that what this I knew that people are completely different from each other. That I know, eh, but still, sometimes you make assumptions. And when you look at the four days were week, it looks like fantastic. No, no matter what. But what I, or we found out is actually that for some people could create some stress.

Because they tend to see that, they have to make same amount of work in one day less. And that creates just a stress by itself. And they can see themselves in this situation where, yes, they [00:28:00] enjoy very much this three days in a row, but they still, the level of stress during this week can be higher than before.

And this is something that was unexpected. And this is something that we have covered with another squad, basically that is called Wellbeing Squad. And actually we pay a special attention to these type of things. This is not the general trend, as I told you, but we have found few cases like that, which was unexpected.

Yeah.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. And it’s good that you’re, anyways, taking care of mental health and wellbeing is always a great thing to do, but especially during a time of turmoil. And for those who are feeling that they have to now condense all of their work into one. Are you guys and correct me if I’m wrong, you’re flexible or hybrid

Juan Gutiérrez Plaza: companies.

We have a completely flexible approach.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yes. Yeah. So I’m guessing some people are, how do you make sure that people [00:29:00] don’t actually do the five day work week, but they just do it like in their four days and they’re just at home till 10 o’clock in the evening? Or are there any checks and balances

Juan Gutiérrez Plaza: on this?

Yes, there are. There are? Yeah. Like the managers usually are checking this out, that people are not over. Overworking and basically pretending that they are doing something and then they do more because they feel this pressure. So yes, this pressure. So from management being included, obviously, cuz I also have reports they are, but still they do, they tend to do the same thing or could tend to do the same thing.

We are all checking this out. Yeah. And ordering that, people are cautious with this.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, that’s great because yeah, especially working from home, it’s already hard enough to switch off. So I guess another one where it’s good that the Friday work week or the Friday is off, or the Monday for those few individuals, because then nobody else is online and you can’t get.

You can’t get [00:30:00] that little itch like, oh, lemme just check my phone and see who’s on Slack or anything. Yeah. Actually

Juan Gutiérrez Plaza: one quite easy to get to into that trap. Yeah. Yes.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, it is very easy to get into that trap and yeah, we’re always on, aren’t we? Sometimes. Hey. So on the on the podcast, we are really big fans of tangible practices and we always like to leave the end of the podcast with some practical tips.

So you’ve already said, Hey, be mindful. This is not a super easy, quick fix. You have to think about this, but are there other recommendations and other things that you’d like to leave? People with or leaders with, or even employees who want to push this four day work week and or contemplating the four day work week and how, yeah, how can they get started?

How they,

Juan Gutiérrez Plaza: so I would emphasize three things that I already said, but I think they are super important. They don’t start just like without any type of measurement. They need to have some type of KPIs that they want to monitor [00:31:00] before and after, because otherwise it’s impossible to see if the things go well or not.

They are within the, basically what you expected. You really see that things are improving or getting worse. This is very important and it might be that they are not in place and if they are not, they need to be set. And then to things from how to start. I think meetings is something that most of the companies are suffering of.

I think it’s very common to have too many meetings and spend most of the time in meetings. That would be one of the first things I would start with. Basically making different type of meetings, checking what do you have there, what is it really important, what it is? Not trying to minimize those, moving to a sync.

Many of those probably. Having a strong prioritization of those. Having some type of [00:32:00] agenda like participants who are really needed their optional, remove all these things and really get it to the minimum. Is this, the question is this meeting really necessary or not?

And the third thing that I mentioned before is the automation. There are many things that we do manually. And yes, when I do it once and it’s a couple of minutes, it doesn’t matter. But if do it, if I do it 10 times a day, then it makes a difference. When we are talking about the whole week, for example, identifying those, automate them, this is also a key to get this. It is basically working and then and getting this basically performance or basically pretty much the same efficiency that we have with not efficiency, but basically the performance we have or the amount of things we do in five days, getting them in four days.

And this definitely doable. And basically say this based on experience, [00:33:00] but you need to get these certain things in place, otherwise it won’t happen.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So some companies might be closer to that point already whilst others have a long way to go. Yeah. In, in, in yeah.

Optimizing there or already first before they move on to other things. Hey Juan, thank you so much for explaining, what’s been happening at Scoro and how great it’s been going. I’m happy that all of your employees are super excited about this and that they wouldn’t wanna go back. So thanks again for coming here explaining your story.

We look forward to see what Score does in the future with new, innovative

Juan Gutiérrez Plaza: things. Thank you very much. It was a true pleasure to talk to you today. Great. Thank you again. Bye bye.

Elisa Tuijnder: You’ve been listening to The Happiness At Work podcast by Management 3.0 where we are getting serious [00:34:00] about happiness. Be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and if you enjoy our shows, don’t be shy. Write us a review. Share the happiness with your colleagues, family or friends. Follow us on Twitter, Facebook, or LinkedIn under Management 3.0.