What does it mean to lead with authenticity in a world driven by personal branding and digital personas?

Today, we explore the transformative power of authenticity with Emma Donovan, Co-founder, ideator, and brand strategist at Dapper, who helps leaders unlock their true potential.

We dive into how embracing one’s authentic self can revolutionize careers, from navigating personal branding challenges to fostering an environment where individuals can thrive. We’ll learn how authenticity shapes not only personal success but also happiness in the workplace.

More information of Emma here. 

More information about Dapper here. 

Transcript

*Please note that the transcript has been automatically generated and proofread for mistakes. But remains in spoken English, and some syntax and grammar mistakes might remain.

Elisa Tuijnder: [00:00:00] What does it mean to lead with authenticity in a world driven by personal branding and digital personas? Today, we explore the transformative power of authenticity with a brand strategist who helps leaders unlock their true potential. We dive into how embracing one’s authentic self can revolutionize careers, from navigating personal branding challenges to fostering an environment where individuals can thrive.

Authenticity can shape not only personal success, but [00:00:30] also happiness in the workplace.

Before we dive in, you are listening to the Happiness at Work podcast by Management 3point0, where we are getting serious about happiness.

I’m your host, Elisa Taander, happiness enthusiast and Management 3point0 team member. In this podcast, we share insights from industry experts, [00:01:00] Influencers and thought leaders about what it takes to be happy, motivated and productive at work, so that loving your job becomes the norm and not the exception.

We will be publishing every fortnight on Friday, so be sure to tune in and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

Welcome Emma Donovan. Emma is a co founder and brand strategist at [00:01:30] Dapper, where she empowers leaders through self discovery and helps them own their stories authentically. Today, we delve into how authenticity can transform careers and businesses. I’m so excited for this and it’s fantastic to have you with us, Emma.

Emma Donovan: Thank you, Elisa. I’m really 

Elisa Tuijnder: excited to be here. It’s such a great topic to dive into with you. Absolutely. Super important and more important every day, in my opinion. But before we launch into that, we always have to start with the same question and that is, what does happiness mean to you? 

Emma Donovan: So I love this question and [00:02:00] knowing that you’re always open with it, I had a bit of time to reflect on it.

And I actually stumbled across an article I wrote on LinkedIn back in 2016, so pretty much eight years ago. And I’d love to share just a quick extract from it because I feel that it’s, it’s still so relevant today in a sort of different chapter of my life. But I said, it’s doing little things that make you smile and make others smile.

Being proactive, yourself with people that you look forward to seeing, and don’t sap your [00:02:30]energy, taking time to savor that cup of coffee or watch the sunrise. But most of all, it’s about being balanced and content within yourself. And I went on to say, you really need to discover what makes you tick. Play to your strengths, bring in spontaneity, but don’t lose sight of what matters.

Elisa Tuijnder: And it was 

Emma Donovan: lovely to leap back to it and go, that’s all, it’s all so relevant to me today. I think what I’d add is just staying true to my core values. So the three that I live by are [00:03:00] freedom, connection with ease, and vitality. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Nice. And 

Emma Donovan: I feel that if I Always come back to those, happiness will follow. And for me, it’s about happiness and joy.

And I’m really interested in the relationship between them because I think happiness sometimes can be fleeting, whereas joy has just got this, this substance to it and this underlying feeling that I love. 

Elisa Tuijnder: I have not read the book of joy, but I have done some research into the difference between happiness and joy from a, from, from both, [00:03:30] uh, you know, from a language point of view and from like a lived experience point of view.

So it’s really interesting. 

Emma Donovan: It is. I highly recommend it. I think bringing together such different cultures and sort of faiths. together from the Dalai Lama and Deadman Tutu. I just found it fascinating, but it was also a fun book to read. Uh, Archbishop Deadman Tutu says, Discovering more joy doesn’t save us from the inevitability of hardship and heartbreak.

In fact, we might cry more easily, but we’ll laugh more [00:04:00] easily too. And perhaps we’re just more alive. So I think to wrap up my answer, for me, happiness is just so linked to feeling alive, that vitality that I mentioned. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, it’s the typical Buddhist side of the happiness narrative, right? We can’t actually experience happiness without knowing what unhappiness is.

And that is so true, right? You don’t really know what it is if you don’t. You know, if you don’t have anything to oppose it with. Yeah. So, yeah, thank you for that answer. Great. Wow. And I’m going to definitely, it’s been on my list for a little while and [00:04:30] I’m going camping next week and my plan on camping is literally to read three books at the same time.

Wonderful. Hey, so here on the podcast, we also really always want to sort of know what makes the person tick that’s in front of me. And who are you, Emma? And I can see that you’ve had a very diverse career, but there’s always been sort of this red thread of communications and storytelling. So. I really wanted to know whether that is sort of always been your thing, uh, whether you fell into it, how did that path go?

Emma Donovan: That’s a great question. I think storytelling has [00:05:00] always been very central to how I communicate, what I value. And one of my top five strengths is relator. So I love that authentic connection with people. But I actually enrolled in law when I got to university and I quickly realized it wasn’t the right path for me.

I hope I would have made a decent lawyer, but just needed something more creative and something with a bit more flow. And so I think that has really guided quite a diverse career, hospitality, marketing, branding. But really finding my sweet spot in my 30s in branding, I think [00:05:30] there’s a really strong link to authentic storytelling there.

Elisa Tuijnder: Was that part, that authenticity, was that always sort of part of you in a conscious way or was that more first unconscious? And then there was this sort of aha moment or at least some things coming together and you were like, okay, this is so important. I’m going to really focus on this. Was there like a pivotal point for this?

Emma Donovan: I want to say yes to both. Let me unpack that a bit. So I’ve always valued authenticity. I think people who are comfortable in their skin is just something that I gravitate towards [00:06:00] and I think you go through phases. As a teenager in your early career where it’s hard to have that, it’s hard to be authentic all the time.

But I think it’s something I got better at as I got older. So absolutely something I worked at and strived for. But there was a pivotal moment and it was early on in the COVID pandemic when I stripped away so many of the things that bring me joy, a lot of exercise and time with friends and being out exploring.

When I stripped that away and was left with the work I was doing, I don’t [00:06:30] feel like I’ve got authentic alignment. I was okay at what I was doing. I was, you know, showing up for my clients and my team, but I didn’t love what I was doing. And so that actually started to feel like I wasn’t being authentic.

And that was really where the sort of idea for DAPA stemmed from is what can I do that’s more authentic to what I love and I’m good at and where I add value in the world. So that, yeah, that alignment, I think, became a lot more clear to me. I think we can run away from things, or we think we’re running [00:07:00] towards something, but we are running from something.

So just being forced to create space and reflect really helped me find that awareness and purpose. 

Elisa Tuijnder: It all starts with awareness. Absolutely. It does. Hey, you said like people, you’ve always been drawn to people who are comfortable in their own skin. Is that sort of your definition of authenticity, or is it also people who are not very comfortable in their own skin, but are actually very open about that?

I think there’s a huge 

Emma Donovan: link between authenticity and vulnerability. I think that being [00:07:30]comfortable in your skin is something to work towards. I don’t think it’s a prerequisite to be authentic, if we can look at it that way. I think the simplest definition for me is that you’re genuine and you’re real.

So that might come with confidence, that might not. You might struggle with vulnerability, but learn to lean into it. We often talk about quiet confidence and it’s that sense of owning your space, not competing with anyone else, staying in your lane. As I worked more in the space and worked with more leaders and future leaders [00:08:00] around authenticity and branding, that’s come up a lot for me.

How do you build in vulnerability, flexibility, just sort of having the confidence to stand on your own path, being genuine to who you are. I think another one, um, people often talk about being like a strong leader or showing up with intention, but I always like to look at how do you balance power and grace.

So it’s bringing that masculine and feminine energy, that awareness that we, we touched on. And I think that also feeds into. [00:08:30] Being organic. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, absolutely. Hey, let’s make it a little bit more tangible. So a client, whether that’s an organization or a person comes to Dapr and says, okay, I need to find some help with kind of either finding what I’m strong at and also then showcasing that towards the outside world.

So how’d you do that? How’d you take them in? Yeah, let’s just run us a little bit through what the first sort of meeting would be like. 

Emma Donovan: Absolutely. So we typically start [00:09:00] with an individual. We do work with companies as well, but we always feel that if you can create that authenticity at the core with the leader, that it can ripple out and then have that impact.

And something that almost all of our clients have is imposter syndrome. Or some level of it, I don’t really like using the word syndrome because it sounds so severe and it’s a big thing, but there’s that, those traits that come through. So that’s often a big thing that we work on with clients and it’s really to go, what are the roadblocks?

Like, [00:09:30] you are capable, you’re incredible at what you do, you’re charismatic, like, where’s this coming in? And just sort of delving back into what matters to them, understanding their story. before we try and craft a brand or a narrative that they can share with the world. So it’s very much, you’re like reflective before you look at the outside world.

And I think a lot of people need to unlearn habits or behavior. So whether they are wearing a mask, whether they feel they need to please people, um, [00:10:00] they feel pressured into something. So I think a lot of it is, Again, the awareness, they’re like, what are the stumbling blocks here? Yeah, 

Elisa Tuijnder: what are the stumbling blocks and what are my strengths and trying to find that voice, I’m guessing.

Yeah. Personal branding in itself. I mean, Um, because I’ve spoken to people like you before, who do the same things. I kind of know it’s a lot broader, but it sounds like a very scary thing to do, right? It sounds almost like, Oh my God, I’m going to an ad [00:10:30] agency and I’m making like a fancy commercial for myself or something like that.

But it’s a bit deeper than that, isn’t it? How do you see that? So two things 

Emma Donovan: for me, one is I always see your brand, it’s so much more than your LinkedIn profile. So it’s how you show up in real life. It’s when you realize that. You can share value and knowledge, you can network, you can just be part of a community rather than putting yourself in the limelight or on that pedestal.

And also that you can take one step at a time. You don’t [00:11:00] need to be, you know, from zero to a hundred with a brand. You can just take those micro steps. 

Elisa Tuijnder: It’s crazy, right? What founders have to be able to all do. They have to have a great idea. They have to be good at organizational structure. They have to be a good leader.

They have to find the right people. They have to be good at branding. It’s a lot of things that you have to think about. Would you say that sort of that, Oh God, I now have to create this kind of thing. And I’m actually just here with a good idea. Would that be some of the biggest challenges that they come with to you?

Or what do you see in that founder community? What’s one of their [00:11:30] biggest struggles to putting that out there? 

Emma Donovan: So I think it does depend on the stage of the business. Often we work with founders who are scaling and they’ve suddenly got a sort of management layer below them and they’re like, my personal brand used to be just aligned to the company brand, but now I need to be more intentional about it.

And I need to make sure that there’s synergy between the leadership team and the brand without it being forced. And so that’s a space we love to play in because you need to navigate it carefully without over curating it. [00:12:00] So you want people to have the awareness around brands. You want them to understand where the company’s going, what is the sort of bigger vision and mission we’re working towards, but how do we lean into our own brands?

So that’s, that’s a lot of fun to play in that space and for leaders to, to see the difference between their own value and brand and the company that they’re building. Unless they are like a solopreneur or just, you know, one man band, then it’s, it’s different. But I think when you’re building a company, it’s.[00:12:30]

alignment or synergy without seeing them as, as one. So that would be a, quite a common challenge. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, absolutely. I love how you say you have to sort of also kind of really, without it being too much, right? There’s this wonderful, hilarious Reddit page about, you know, Matlab, LinkedIn, or something like that, um, which shares means of people, you know, I remember one where it was basically somebody proposing to their girlfriend and then putting on LinkedIn what he learned from business about that.

[00:13:00] I’d say 

Emma Donovan: that, that you just touched on another common challenge is like, how do you inject personality into your content without it being too personal? 

Elisa Tuijnder: And 

Emma Donovan: it depends on your audience. It depends on, you know, like the why behind what you’re doing, but it is something that we often talk about having a kind of 80 20 rule where 80 percent of your content needs to be value add.

And then you just injecting that little bit of relatability and experience shares that [00:13:30] will bring the personal lens. 

Elisa Tuijnder: That’s a really good rule of thumb, the 80 20 rule, because I sometimes struggle with this when I’m running a LinkedIn post. I’m like, I am somebody who’s naturally over shares, but I try really not do that too much on, on, on, on LinkedIn and even on the podcast.

So I’ll keep, I’ll bear that 80 20 rule. Absolutely. But I 

Emma Donovan: think just to, to challenge you on that one, I think people listen to your podcast because they enjoy your story too. So yeah, so don’t hold back too much on that [00:14:00] one. Do 

Elisa Tuijnder: you want to give us a, or do you have a, you obviously don’t have to know any names, but do you want to give us a transformative story that somebody came to you and kind of, you know, how this sort of really led to either a new path in their career or a whole new avenue that they, that they found so we can sort of relate a little bit and we can.

Marvel at 

Emma Donovan: someone else’s success. Absolutely. There’s, there’s so many different examples, but I think one that maybe leads on from our conversation is around that idea of imposter syndrome. Uh, so we have got a client [00:14:30] who is the MD of a big successful company. He’s also got two side hustles, which are incredible, like startup businesses, super interesting.

And he, the main reason he came to us was imposter syndrome, but also just tidying up all the different profiles for him, having some consistency, having that like golden thread throughout. I’m now used to this idea of people having imposter syndrome when we first started. I was very confused by how many brilliant people had it, but I was like, Oh yeah, you too.

Okay, let’s, let’s unpack this. His imposter syndrome was [00:15:00] around being asked to speak at events and speak on panels where he’s the MD, but he’s not the researcher. And he doesn’t have all the stats. You know, in top of mind, and he maybe doesn’t have the, the insights of, of some people in the team whose jobs are a lot more focused, like you were saying, the leader has to wear so many hats.

So where we got to was just this sort of understanding of if you’ve been invited, you’ve earned a seat at the table. You’re not there to know everything, to be able to answer everything [00:15:30] flawlessly and you know, with the latest information, it’s just speaking from the heart. And he’s incredibly charismatic.

So I think once he got through that block, he just enjoyed it a lot more. So he was already needing to do those, those public interactions, but to be able to show up and go, this is going to be fun. I enjoy this. I know where I’m, I’m adding value. So that for me was. And a wonderful success story. We’ve got lots of taking people from having almost no brand, but this, I think, is relatable for people who are already at a career stage [00:16:00] where, you know, they’re needing to show up, um, in some shape or form, whether it’s internally for their team or, or externally.

And I think just seeing that shift to feeling like empowered, but just lighter, you know, that sense of like confidence and happiness coming through for me is, is really rewarding. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, absolutely. And there’s also something so, I mean, I always, whenever an MD or founder or whatever, talks about their team and says, sorry, I don’t know that that is sort of part [00:16:30] of blah, blah, blah, um, remit.

And they’re still working on that. I could get back to you on this. There’s something so good about that, that I almost pop up a bit from the crowd and go like, okay, I’m going to listen a little bit closer. Because you can, that’s that, that’s authenticity. Okay, this guy is not sitting there thinking, or girl, or whatever, is not saying like, okay, I know everything.

I have this great team around me and I’m giving them credit and they get so much more credibility because of that. Yeah, 

Emma Donovan: credibility and just That sort of alignment and [00:17:00] respect, which is yeah, amazing. 

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Hey, you mentioned, um, you had to side hustles as well, and I, [00:18:00] I noticed on your website that you used or said, Hey, you tried hustle culture, it’s not working for you. Do you want to expand a little bit on that? Because I thought it was a very interesting one because they, I mean, the whole Gen Z and millennials, Oh, we all have to do our full time jobs.

And then also do three side hustles and have an internet business and all of these kinds of things. What do, what do you mean by that? I’d love to hear some more. 

Emma Donovan: So I think earlier in my career, I mean, hustle was such a, just part of my identity and my approach. I think it was even my, for a while, it was my passcode on my knuckle up.

Like every [00:18:30] morning I wrote in hustle and then one day I changed it to a line. And when I started Dapr, I was still a shareholder and still involved in a marketing agency. And so I spent a couple of years doing both and it was absolutely exhausting. So I take my hat off to, um, people who have multiple businesses and do it well.

I know it’s possible, but for me, it just, it took away from my happiness and my sense of peace, and I realized how important it was to, to maintain that. So I [00:19:00] think that a part of our philosophy at Dapr is to create space. And to encourage people to do what matters and to do what matters, you need space to think and create and connect with people.

So it’s really just my personal philosophy has shifted and it’s, it’s become embedded in our company culture. As a team, we make time to have lunch together. On Friday, I had meetings with two different team members and I said, well, why don’t you overlap? Come to my house. I’m going to do soup. You know, it’s going to be really simple, but we’ll just [00:19:30] have that half an hour of connection time.

It’s winter soup time for you. Absolutely. And I just, yeah, I think creating space rather than leaning into the hustle, that’s not to say there won’t be stages in your career where you need to hustle. But I prefer to look at it as like focus slots. So if I work a six or a nine hour day, I’ll probably achieve the same amount of work and the quantity will be better on a six hour day.

So it’s being intentional and going, when do I need to hassle? When [00:20:00] do I need to step back? And just steering clear of the, the train to burn out. And I think spotting those signs of being burned out, exhausted, jaded, and going, how do I, how do I catch this and turn it around? 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. And, and I mean, now we call it hustle culture, but before, I mean, there was also parts of this, like I, I, for example, I’m really not good in the mornings, I used to like force myself to sit behind my desk and like, I would just stare at emails and not really get anywhere and [00:20:30]I’m most productive and most creative between like three and nine.

And it took me years until I was in my thirties to forgive myself for that. I was always like, there is something wrong with me and I should be like full blast and 5am in the gym kind of situation. Yeah. So like also not having, you know, also recognizing that you might click differently, take differently that, you know, like you said, six hours a day, more intentional, more output actually.

And that’s what it’s about. And, and if I work it from, from [00:21:00] 3pm to, to 9pm, that might be weird for some people, but that’s when I do my best work. I mean, that’s when I do my most creative work. Um, and, and so forgiving yourself for that, that you don’t fit in the nine to five mold is a big part of it, I’m guessing.

Emma Donovan: Absolutely a tight back to what I was saying about having grace. You know, balancing that power and grace. And I love that you touched on the time of day that makes sense for you. Cause that is so important. I’m the opposite. I’m a morning person, but my business partner, Lynne, do the same with you. And so I always say to her, [00:21:30] when I wrap up my day, you’ve got half of yours still to go.

I don’t want to feel guilty that you’re still there and you mustn’t feel guilty in the morning when you get online and I’ve already sent you 10 things. Also around that, like, alignment, that we’ve had that conversation. Um, you can presume it, but it’s so important for us to just have that connection point, like just checking, you know, that when you get online, I don’t expect you to like reply to my 10 things straight away.

Elisa Tuijnder: Being explicit in your culture is, is incredibly [00:22:00] important. Don’t expect everybody to read between the lines and people come with baggage from different places and, you know. Just say, I don’t care. And then that’s out of the way, and no one else has to carry that for a while, or it’s totally okay. Hey, so one of the things I also wanted to touch with you upon is sort of this digital age and the wave of AI, which kind of on the one hand helps us build our own branding, but also has the massive potential to automate it and [00:22:30] not, Inject any of this authenticity anymore as much into it.

How do you stand against that? And how do you see the future of this? Big question. Big 

Emma Donovan: question and not one I’m an expert on, but I’m very happy to sort of share my view and how I’ve experienced it. And I often say, I think AI has incredible potential to do the heavy lifting for us. So especially if you’re creating content, but I don’t think we’ll ever be in a space where that human touch loses value.

So that authentic human [00:23:00] connection is just so powerful. And if we are looking at an online space, I think connecting directly to someone through conversation, so video or podcast, I think are really powerful ways to do that. And to use AI to save you time. So that heavy lifting piece of research or refining your prompts, but just remembering your brand is real life as well as online.

Much agree with you there. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s great for us to kind of. Give ideas and spark ideas and do [00:23:30] some of the outlines, but never just copy paste. That’s not how I tend to use it as well. The heavy lifting, it is handy. I remember when I was in uni, my, my, my, my supervisor for my thesis would always say like, just write it out first and then I’ll, I’ll make changes to it.

That’s so much easier. And sometimes that resonates in my head. Like, yeah, that’s actually what it is. Like somebody just doing a first draft and then you can go, Oh no, I don’t like that. Or let’s, let’s try something else. And for me, what it does is it sort of sparks new things, but that initial sort of thing [00:24:00] is, is, is handy for it.

Um, but yes, let’s not forget to continuously put the human touch back into it. Yeah. 

Emma Donovan: And I think to, to loop back to why you’ve created the content, like who is it for? What’s the message you want to land? It’s not just about the detail. I always say with writing, I come back to the like introduction and the conclusion at the end, because sometimes as you’re creating content, you go, I was going to be talking about that, but now I’m talking about this and this is more relevant.

So just like [00:24:30] also having that flexibility to, to go down a different path. Which is something I think with AI that maybe it’s limiting, like it, it can, like you said, prompt you to have new ideas, but you can also get in a bit of a rabbit hole of, of wanting to trade. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. Being mindful of it is, is incredibly important.

Um, I was wondering as well, while we were talking, so. You have your own voice and the way you write is very particular to yourself. So how important is it to maintain that all the time? Because I sometimes struggle with this because I can be, when I write, when I write freely, when I can be [00:25:00] very cynical or cynical in the sense like not cynical, maybe a bit sarcastic, but in like a, in like a dark humor kind of tone and quite colloquial as well.

And I always struggle with this sort of with LinkedIn, especially like, how far do I say through to myself and be authentic around this? And how much do I take it to like flattening it to appeal to sort of the corporate voice? 

Emma Donovan: Great question. I think two things come up for me. One is the difference between voice and tone.

So I like to say that your [00:25:30] voice is kind of consistent, whereas your tone changes depending on your mood. Or your, your environment. And in terms of how much you adapt it, I always say like, why again, come back to why, why you’re communicating, who are you communicating to, and I think it’s really important to not try and appeal to everyone.

Yeah. Not everyone’s going to have the same humor or have the same context. If it’s going to appeal to the people you want to reach, that for me is first pride, as long as it’s still authentic. [00:26:00] And I used to think about, you know, what my tone versus. You know, who I’m talking to and I’m like, well, this is mine and hopefully it’ll land.

I think what becomes really interesting is when you, again, are like growing a business and you’ve got to look at more than one person’s tone. So we’ve got a wonderful copywriter. He said to me, I can see on your website, which paragraphs you wrote and which paragraph Lindsay wrote, and I went, oh dear, I mean, she knows us really well, but what we’ve done is we’ve got her as someone slightly [00:26:30] removed to find a consistent.

Voice and tone for Dapr, which is aligned to our own individual tone, has its own voice as the company grows beyond, beyond that. So that’s also an interesting one to think about a personal versus company tone and voice. Yeah, 

Elisa Tuijnder: incredibly important. And also later on, if you grow, like you have new people in it, like, you know, how can they inject their own things, but stay true to.

the original founding idea of the company. And that’s why, you know, culture, culture, culture, [00:27:00] culture. I keep saying that and making sure that your people know your culture and your, you know, the way you want to interact with people. It doesn’t necessarily need to boil down completely to, you know, word for word, however you would say it.

But At least it should align. Yeah. Hey, so we are obviously happy to have work and our audience comprises also a lot of, a lot of leaders and managers. Uh, and so how important is it for you as a leader, for the leaders that you talk about or talk to, and that are your [00:27:30] clients to foster an environment where this authenticity is possible?

And yeah, if there’s any advice that you can give in that area for us as well. 

Emma Donovan: Yeah, it’s, it’s an interesting space. I think that we’ve covered a lot of things indirectly, but I can maybe try and group them together. We’ve spoken about vulnerability and I think for leaders to show vulnerability is, it’s huge and to lead by example.

So if you’re able as a leader to be authentic and vulnerable. I think it creates a culture and an environment where that is easier. [00:28:00] Um, there’s two exercises, which we probably don’t have time to delve into now, but that I can share briefly. That I think are great ways to help people find that authentic voice.

And what we always talk about is lifting the mask. So the, um, Johari window is a really interesting model to, to go and have a look at, but essentially there are four quadrants and one of them is understanding your blind spot. So really asking the people around you. What are the things I need to work on?

I [00:28:30] found it incredibly interesting when I did it myself for the first time. My boss said to me, you have really high expectations for yourself, which is great, but you also put those expectations onto others. And I think of that so often in a conversation with someone in my team where I go, am I being reasonable?

Like, is this, you know, a realistic time frame? Awareness again. Back to the awareness. So I think doing that kind of thing as part of your culture on a regular basis. Another one we do is what we call the stop start continue [00:29:00] exercise. Where you have each person’s in the team down one side of the page and then stop, start, continue across the top.

And it’s really a safe space to give constructive feedback. So what is each person, including yourself, you need your own name on the page. What should I stop doing, start doing or continue doing? And I think it’s just again, a way to have conversations around alignment. What’s working, how do we work better as, as a team.

So a lot of it is that, that alignment. And then I think just [00:29:30] investing in professional brand development is something that leaders can do for their team. We launched an online course last year to make what we do at DAP more accessible. So the idea is it’s a build your own brand. It’s called Brand Yourself.

And that I’m really excited about because I think it gives people who are not necessarily in leadership positions. Um, and there’s not necessarily budget allocated to their professional You know, in a bigger company, but for them to over a three month kind of timeframe, really understand why branding is [00:30:00] important, how to get the basics right and get that alignment.

I think we often forget that it’s a journey. It’s not a quick fix. It’s around self discovery. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. Yeah. My next question was going to be around this journey. So I’m also starting a new venture at the moment with another colleague. I am obsessed with getting all the details right from the start at the moment, like, from the tone of voice to really detailed briefs of what her mission and value is, and, and she’s just like, you know, some of that will [00:30:30] change.

I’m like, yeah, I know it will change, but like, I’m always like, I can’t actually start with it without having all these ducks in a row, which is unusual for me. Normally I’m a get up and go like, okay, we’ll see where this goes. But nowadays, like, cause I understand how important it is. I’m just like, no, I’ve got to get this all right.

If I’m not mistaken, you can sort of like evolve with it. Right. And it’s not like you have to have it all. Otherwise you’re not going to be successful or at least being able to do what you want to do. 

Emma Donovan: Yes. I think it’s so admirable to want to get it right at the beginning, but we often say done is better [00:31:00] than perfect.

So you get a first draft out into the world, your brand should evolve as you do. You go through different chapters in life and your career. So it’s really about going, what’s authentic right now and how do I evolve over time? You know, even if we go back to LinkedIn and say, you know, you get it up to date, it’s not a CV, it’s a platform to build a network and communicate and, you know, share ideas.

So your ideas are going to evolve over time. You might want to re look at your, your bio or your key [00:31:30] skills on a quarterly or annual basis. Just go, what’s relevant right now? It’s so easy to get caught in the detail, especially when it’s something new and exciting. And I, I’m sure I did the same when we, we started Dappen back then.

I know I did. 

Elisa Tuijnder: I love this one. Done is better than perfect. I, I really love that. I’m going to keep that. I’m going to use this the next two months until we sort of get this out there as a, as a, as a mantra to let go of certain things and move on to more important things. So [00:32:00] appreciate that. 

Emma Donovan: It’s huge. Yeah.

And I think having feedback is so important. So getting something out into the world, I mean, welcoming feedback and saying this is our first iteration. We know we can do better. We are excited to launch 2. 0. What needs to be, you know, what needs to be included? What needs to be better? 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, absolutely. And going to those, you know, foundational clients and asking them for feedback and The people that, you know, you can sort of make mistakes with and that you know through a longer [00:32:30] relationship as a, as a business owner.

I was reading a book yesterday that founding culture in the beginning, it’s really important to stay true, but also have all these diverse voices and that you have to continue to kind of keep listening to them, even though if you’ve had initial success, that you can go down a narrow street and close yourself off.

And that can be your detriment. And. It’s something that we all know, I guess, but it is, it’s a nice one sometimes to read and kind of remember. Keep top of mind. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And keep [00:33:00] listening to, to diverse voices as well. Absolutely. Hey, unfortunately, we’re going to have to start wrapping up. So I’ve had to come to my last question, which is always about tangible practices, something that our listeners can start practicing tomorrow.

So maybe you could share one or two personal practices or mindset that you found effective for increasing happiness and authenticity. 

Emma Donovan: Absolutely. So I think I mentioned the phrase earlier, but it’s such a big one for me is do what matters. so much. And that can be little things. So like [00:33:30] finding joy in the ordinary, just before we, we started the podcast recording, we touched on yoga, that’s something that I need every week.

It is so great for my body and my mind, but it’s also just being on my mat and that routine. So like healthy habits and routines for me is huge. I love being in nature and the sun showering people that give me energy. So I think those little things are important, but if I had to distill it down to something that’s.

Maybe relatable for more people is distinguishing between what you [00:34:00] want and what you feel you should want. Because it’s so easy to be like, I’m at this life stage or this is what’s expected of me and actually not take this time to go, what do I want or need? To feel happy, to be content, to have joy. So I think that’s, that’s a big one.

And then one we haven’t, I don’t think have it yet is accountability. It’s so easy to get caught up in, I’m going to do this. And I’m so excited about that. But then actually having someone who can keep you on that path or [00:34:30] just check in with you and go. Have you been to yoga this week? Like, have you, you know, and I think a lot of that’s around happiness and I think the same applies to authenticity.

It’s someone who knows your voice and tone and has a relationship with you to be able to say the last few things you’ve shared or, you know, that podcast episode. I don’t know if it was, you know, as authentic as what I expect from you. So those kind of welcoming, that kind of feedback, those blind spot conversations, I think are great.

And maybe one [00:35:00] more thought is just to. I can’t remember where I saw this quote, but I absolutely love it and it’s around being in an environment that brings out the softness in you, not the survival in you. 

Elisa Tuijnder: And 

Emma Donovan: so to just really look at, again, home, work, um, different environments that you’re part of. And I think that softness speaks to authenticity, so not, you know, um, like stand your ground, have all of those strong qualities, the power, but then have that grace, um, and lean on to [00:35:30] it.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, I love that. Absolutely love that. Yeah, it’s so important. Your environment is. is key to being and doing, doing what you love as well. Absolutely. All right, Emma, thank you so much for having this conversation. I really, really enjoyed it. Do you want to repeat one more time, like the brand development package that you launched for people and also where they can find it again, and maybe where they can find you as well, if they want to follow you on LinkedIn or wherever.

Emma Donovan: Absolutely. I’m always keen to connect with [00:36:00] people and start new conversations. So it’s Emma Donovan on LinkedIn. And our website is becomedapper. com. The online course I mentioned is called Brand Yourself. And what we’d love to do is share a discount code for your listeners. So we can put that in the show notes, but there’s all the information you need on becomedapper.

com. And I’m always, always happy to chat if people have questions or, or want to know more. 

Elisa Tuijnder: All right. That’s great to hear. Yeah, we’ll absolutely share a [00:36:30] link and do all of those things in the show notes. But for now, thank you so much again. And yeah, maybe we’ll see each other again in another capacity, maybe on the podcast again, or a different podcast.

We’ll see. I love it. 

Emma Donovan: Oh, thank you so much. It’s really been lovely to be here and good luck with your new venture. Thank you. I’m excited to see what that brings. Coming out soon. Bye. 

Elisa Tuijnder: You’ve been listening to the Happiness at Work podcast by 3.0 where we are [00:37:00] getting serious about happiness. Be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and if you enjoy our shows, don’t be shy.

Write us a review. Share the happiness with your colleagues, family or friends. Follow us on Twitter, Facebook, or LinkedIn under Management three. [00:37:30] Oh.