What turns customers into lifelong advocates, and makes a brand not just survive but thrive?
Today’s episode takes you inside one of the most iconic corporate turnarounds in history, with someone who helped make it happen. We’re joined by Ken Schmidt, a communications strategist who steered Harley-Davidson from near collapse to cultural legend.
In this conversation, we explore what it means to lead with authenticity, build people-first cultures, and make a lasting impact in a way that truly resonates. If you’ve ever wondered how branding, leadership, and happiness intersect—this one’s for you.
More information about Ken here.
Transcript
*Please note that the transcript has been automatically generated and proofread for mistakes. But remains in spoken English, and some syntax and grammar mistakes might remain.
Elisa Tuijnder: [00:00:00] What makes a brand not just survive, but thrive and turn customers into lifelong advocates? Today’s episode takes you inside one of the most iconic corporate turnarounds in history with someone who helped make it all happen. We’re joined by a communication strategist who helped Seer Harley Davidson from near collapse to cultural legend.
In this conversation, we explore what it means to lead with authenticity. Build people first cultures and make noise in a way that truly resonates. If you’ve ever wondered how branding, leadership and happiness intersect, this one’s for you.
Before we dive in, you are listening to The Happiness At Work podcast by Management 3.0 where we are getting serious about happiness.
I’m your host, er, happiness Enthusiast and [00:01:00] Management 3.0 team member. In this podcast, we share insights from industry experts. Influencers and thought leaders about what it takes to be happy, motivated, and productive at work, so that loving your job becomes the norm and not the exception. We’ll be publishing every fortnight or Friday, so be sure to tune in and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Welcome to today’s episodes where we have the pleasure of speaking with Ken Schmitz, the former director of communications at Harley Davidson, and a renowned Keo speaker and author. Ken played a pivotal role in one of the most legendary turnarounds in corporate history, transforming Harley Davidson into a global icon of loyalty and customer engagement.
Today, he shares his learnings with the world, basically via keynotes, books, and a wonderful podcast. So welcome, Kent. So happy to have you here.
Ken Schmidt: I’m so glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
Elisa Tuijnder: Great. Hey, I’m super excited to delve into, uh, the insights that you [00:02:00] have and, you know, the Hardy Davidson story that you are probably already almost tired of telling.
Never, because people ask never. But we can’t start, we can’t start this podcast without our, our signature question. And that is, what does happiness mean to you?
Ken Schmidt: Uh, that’s a, that’s a great. Question. There’s a, um, a wonderful adage in the Harley Davidson world that, that we use to describe something that’s really hard to describe and mm-hmm.
And basically say, you know, well, why do you write Harleys? And you say, well, if I have to explain you, you wouldn’t understand. Uh, because it’s, it’s hard to describe things that are so personal, I mean so much. But to me it really just comes down to, if it’s one word, enjoyment, if I’m enjoying what I’m doing.
And who I’m doing it with, or even if I’m doing it by myself, that to me is the essence of, of, of happiness.
Elisa Tuijnder: Nice. Fantastic. Sometimes it’s so hard to sort of put a finger on it, right. That that’s why the thing called the things like the X factor and what, whatever, like this, these words that, that you can’t, it’s a feeling almost.
Right. Very
Ken Schmidt: true. [00:03:00] And, and what I always do, anytime I’m meeting with clients, if I’m doing training torque sessions, if I’m speaking, if it’s just a, a meeting, I say, you know, if we’re not having fun, we’re not doing it.
Elisa Tuijnder: Doing it right there,
Ken Schmidt: there, there’s always opportunities to, to, to just be happy and enjoy ourselves together.
Elisa Tuijnder: Absolutely. I’m a firm believer in that hence podcast.
Ken Schmidt: And you, I
Elisa Tuijnder: figured that. Hey, so tell us a little bit more, uh, about you, about Ken, like, uh, rule. I can see you’ve done many things, but there seems to be a red thread around communication as well. So was that always sort of on the cards for you? How, how did you get to this, this wonderful career that you have?
Ken Schmidt: It’s, it’s a long and winding path. I, I always thought I would be either a journalist or, uh, someone in advertising because that always intrigued me, uh, when I, when I was younger. But that those things kind of didn’t really work out the way I wanted them too. And I kind of side. Railed into the communications [00:04:00] world.
And it worked out really, really well for me because I was able to pursue things that I was really passionate about, uh, like motorcycles. Mm-hmm. And build a career around it. So you re really fortunate that way. Uh, but I’ve, ve always kind of found that if you chase things that you’re passionate about, you’ll get there.
You, you, you will eventually get there. And it worked out for me and, and lots of other people that I know.
Elisa Tuijnder: Absolutely. Yeah, they’re very true. So we’ve mentioned or dropped the word Harley Davidson, and you were just saying, you know, one of your passions, we’ve, we’ve said it a few times and, you know, uh, in the corporate world or in the, in, it’s sort of a legendary turnaround.
Mm-hmm. But a lot of our listeners might not be fully familiar with it. So do you wanna start us off with sort of what happened there in your own words, uh, how you came in and how, where you left as well then? Sure.
Ken Schmidt: Uh, I, I’ll try to give a really short tour. Mm. What. Most folks Dunno is Harley Davidson has been around a very long time.
This is 120 1-year-old [00:05:00] business. But by the mid eighties, 1980s and into the early 1990s, the company was doing very, very poorly product got outdated. The company wasn’t paying attention to customers. It just did what a lot of old companies did and rested on its laurels and the businesses. Financially failing and very, very close to dying.
And I was very fortunate to, to be asked to join the company, which was absolute dream come true for me. What get to be around motorcycles all day? Hmm. Thank you. Uh, and we focused, focused on taking this iconic, famous, or once famous brand and reintroducing it to the world and doing it, uh. Different ways and doing it in ways that people would see and, and recognize as, as being meaningfully different and distinctive.
And the primary challenge that we had was to, uh, is a challenge [00:06:00] that most businesses have is, you know, how, how do we stand out in a marketplace with really solid competition that does the same things that we do? Uh, and we took our cue from that and said, well, we’re not going to do what they do. We can’t.
It’s foolish. So we said, instead of glorifying our products and making our entire business be promoted to the world as somebody who makes and sells things, we’re gonna change that and reintroduce the company as, as a business that glorifies people.
Elisa Tuijnder: Mm-hmm.
Ken Schmidt: Because if we’re making people feel good about themselves and they’re associating that good feeling that they’re having with us, that’s something that they’re gonna wanna share.
With others. That’s what joy is. That’s what happiness mm-hmm is. That’s what community is. That’s what being richly human is. And we found that every time we would make overt efforts or gestures to delight people under the umbrella [00:07:00] of Hurley Davidson, uh, people always came back for more and they would bring their friends with them and we be, you know, quickly became the preferred brand in.
Industry, not just by making great products, but by delighting people, making them feel welcome, part of something bigger than themselves. Yep. Uh, and that those, those are kind of basic human needs that we all have. And we learn that, you know what, if we can trip those triggers, make people feel better about themselves, allow them to have a sense of community, uh, that’s something that they will always identify with us.
And it worked and it’s still working.
Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there’s actually sort of the two sides of this story there, right? Like one is a legacy company and you see this a lot that they say, yeah, it’s worked for a hundred years, but I wanna work anymore now. And you find it very exactly, very hard to, to change.
And there’s so many good examples within the motor, uh, industry, but also, you know, outside of that and thinking companies like Polaroid and that kinda stuff, like, nope, [00:08:00] we’re always done it like this. Um, we have to keep going. And then the second thing is also your. Selling not just a product, you’re selling a lifestyle, I’m guessing as well, or are you selling, you know, you’re selling a piece of Americana?
Uh, sort of how I see it a bit. And, and, and a feeling that comes with that and, and, and the happiness that comes with that. Yeah.
Ken Schmidt: So glad you used the word lifestyle.
Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. Because that,
Ken Schmidt: that was a word that we chose in a, in a meeting as a, like, we can’t keep promoting the virtues of our product. I. Because it does the same thing that other companies, the BMW’s Hondas
Elisa Tuijnder: mm-hmm.
Ken Schmidt: Of the world do. It’s two wheels and a motor. You ride it. Uh, period. So we said, you know what? Instead of selling a product, we’re going to promote to the world that we sell a lifestyle. Mm-hmm. And everybody, and as soon as you say that to somebody, they say, well, what does that mean? What a great question.
Because now, now we can have a conversation and. [00:09:00] We used the word over and over and over and over and over again. I can be anywhere in the world. I can be in Central Africa and ask somebody why they bought a Harley Davidson. They’ll say the for the lifestyle, and that just, that warms my heart to a, a degree that most people wouldn’t understand because it’s, we did that intentionally and it worked.
Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, you were very, very, very successful in that. And so much so that most people wouldn’t even put any awareness to it, right? Like, so it’s always been there, it’s always been this, it’s this sort of iconic piece of am Americana that’s there, and then that’s what comes with that. And so that’s why it’s very successful.
And I think what you, for me, what I’m really happy to see that you also, sometimes what happens is that, you know, people wanna portray on the outside world, one thing, a lifestyle of values, norms, ethics, it’s all, all of that. But then inside the company, it’s completely a different story. And so you, I love that that’s part of your story that you also did this with inside the company.
You could have also just sort of said, that’s what we portray to the outside world. But no, you [00:10:00] brought that inside for your employees as well. And sort of, I think that’s part of the success for me. I think that’s definitely part of the success of how does this,
Ken Schmidt: that’s a, a huge part of, of the success and thank you for, for saying that and noticing that because what happens.
With most businesses, what makes them non-competitive or makes them struggle is that they’re in, they’re inside culture. Their people aren’t in sync with the way the business is positioned, the way it’s marketed, the way it’s promoted. So there’s an immediate disconnect and employees don’t, don’t know why we’re here.
Uh, I know I have a job to do, but at the end of the day, what are we all doing here? And if people working in a business can’t describe. What that business is doing, who they’re doing it for, and why people should prefer working to them. And everyone describe it the same way. This is who we are. This is what we do here.
We can’t possibly hope to be competitive. And there are very few businesses in the world that do that because businesses don’t focus [00:11:00] on their culture. They say they do. I can promise you they don’t.
Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, absolutely. And that’s all what we here stand for and what we think is quintessential for business success as well as for work or happiness and, and, and everything that comes with it.
Ken Schmidt: Absolutely.
Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. I always think like then, then you’re sort of, you know, when you used to go into, still do off and going to offices and they have like the sort of the values on the wall and that kind of stuff. Mm-hmm. But actually no one’s ever. Actually knows what they are, what, what they stand for. I bet you can walk into Harley Davis and ask, so what does the brand stand for And people, and what do you guys stand for and what are your values?
I’m sure everybody will sort, maybe not use the exact same word, but sometimes they do. They’ll
Ken Schmidt: be very close, but they’ll come down,
Elisa Tuijnder: will come down to the same thing.
Ken Schmidt: There’s a reason for that because leadership makes that a priority. We have to operate, look like a family. We lift each other up, we support each other.
We use common language, uh, we do things that internally and externally would be [00:12:00] the same.
Elisa Tuijnder: Yep.
Ken Schmidt: Right? Because when people see a business, uh, they don’t look at a business for what it does. They look at a business for who it is, right? It’s who you are at the end of the day that. People remember, you know, it is, it’s the human qualities and, and the business itself has to reflect the attitudes and the behavior of the people leading the business, which I have to reflect the attitudes and behavior that we want our customers to see and talk about.
And if there’s a disconnect in there anywhere, it doesn’t work.
Elisa Tuijnder: No, it really doesn’t work. ’cause it, it just stands through and everything a little bit. And, and, and the auth, the authenticity factor in that is, is, is incredibly important. But also the purpose driven sort of leadership. That’s why you can attract the best people and you can compete with all the other big companies that might be paying more or even are more cool or whatever.
No more cool, but like, you know, ha give more, give more benefits or something like that. But they wanna go to your company because you’re walking the walk and talking the talk. [00:13:00] And it aligns with them.
Ken Schmidt: And in the, the best recruiters for our business are people who already work there. And when employees are going home and telling their friends, you know, you should be working here.
Mm-hmm. What, how, what’s that worth? I mean, that’s hugely valuable. And a lot of businesses, it’s the exact opposite. Uh, boy, you sure don’t wanna work here. Well, good luck.
Elisa Tuijnder: Is it because culture is so hard to put doubt into data. Also, almost like there’s ways and there’s roundabout ways, but there’s, the ROI isn’t as visible as, for example, you know, uh, this amount XX amount of dollars or, or, and then it comes, it comes into many packages and many forms.
It comes in, creativity comes in, you know, wanting to stay longer and put more best, put your best in it, and all of those kind of things. It’s. A little bit harder to quantify sometimes than, than other things that seem very often
Ken Schmidt: it, it is hard to quantify and for forever. Leaders of of companies tend to view [00:14:00] culture as what I call a soft topic.
That’s, that’s the things that aren’t instantly, you know, measurable and manageable from a business 1 0 1 perspective. But I always liken that too when I would tell the investment world. You know, what we’re focused on is delighting people.
Elisa Tuijnder: Mm-hmm.
Ken Schmidt: And they would say, well, how do you measure that? And I say, no, there’s things in the world and, and in our daily lives that don’t have a metric attached to it.
But you know it when it’s working. And if you look at our bottom line, look at our revenue, look at our profit, look at our customer loyalty, all of that. We’ve got all of that data that’s all reflective of Absolutely. Uh, uh, this effort to delight people. It’s the same with culture. A business that doesn’t make that a priority.
A business that doesn’t incorporate that into their process. This is why we’re here. You know, we can’t exist without culture. Businesses that treat people like hired hands [00:15:00] instead of hired brains, and hearts always struggle.
Elisa Tuijnder: Why?
Ken Schmidt: Because they treat their people as a replaceable commodity, or they turn the responsibility for culture over to.
Human resources, they make it niche. Yeah. The poor people in
Elisa Tuijnder: one, one office across the campus somewhere. Yeah. You guys figure out how everyone on the work floor needs to feel and behave and,
Ken Schmidt: and then, and what, what, and then what they do is they do little bandaid things. Oh, we’ll do a, a, a picnic and we’ll do an employee survey and things.
All of which are nice and, and valuable
Elisa Tuijnder: sometimes, but
Ken Schmidt: valuable and appreciated by employees, but it’s not reflective of the attitudes of the people leading the business. It’s
Elisa Tuijnder: mm-hmm.
Ken Schmidt: Just a department within the business instead of the driver of the business.
Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, absolutely. I, I often advocate that, that HR and culture and, and, and even l and d, you know, you’re learning and development should all have a seat at the table in the C-suite.
Well, look what’s happening.
Ken Schmidt: Look what’s happening in business now. [00:16:00] There’s what’s your biggest challenge and, and just about every business, you know, attracting people and keeping people. Why are they leaving the, the reason people are leaving? It’s pretty easy to find, to find out why. Mm-hmm. Right? Because you’re not making people feel better about themselves, not making them feel welcome and wanted and appreciated and start a part of something bigger than themselves.
Yeah. You, you’re not celebrating people and what, what, what do we know about the word delight? If we, if we delight someone, they come back for more. That’s basic human behavior. It’s the same with employees. Be interested in them. You know, let them know how important they are, delight them and they’ll, they’ll keep coming back.
Treat them like hired hands that are replaceable. They’re gonna, they’re gonna go somewhere else because we all seek joy in life. And if I can’t feel good about myself here, maybe I’ll be able to feel good about myself somewhere else. And they’ll balance from place to place to place until they find it.[00:17:00]
Elisa Tuijnder: Oh, I, I wonder like, you know, because one of the, the other reasons why I think culture is sometimes left behind a bit in strategies and all of these kind of things. Is because it’s really hard, right? It’s really tough. It’s really, uh, it comes from the small things. It comes from the water cooler interactions to, but it, but it is everywhere and, and, and nowhere at the same time.
Right. I mean, it, it needs to permeate everywhere through and how to start that is really difficult. So people tend to gravitate more to, you know, if I do this, then we can save 20% on at the end of the, of the line. So how did you come into Harley-Davidson and just kind of looked and went. Okay. Like how did you approach this sort of project, uh, around people first and, and, and especially as director of communications?
How was it communicated as well?
Ken Schmidt: Firstly, and, and have to say, because this is so important. We had a very enlightened CEO at that time that realized, hey, everything that we’ve done and have been doing is failing. Uh, so we have to embrace different [00:18:00] ways. Tried new ways of doing things or just flat out not going to work.
And what he understood intimately, or I should name him, his name is Rich Teka, wonderful human being. Uh, he understood that anybody who works for a living models the behavior of the people running the business. We all model the behavior of our superiors. All behavior is learned. So it’s incumbent on leadership to exhibit the kind of enthusiasm, uh, behavior.
That they wanna see from their employees. Mm-hmm. Because if they’re not modeling that, then employees will be left to make their own discoveries about how they want to treat people. So it’s like, we can’t say that we’re one thing if that’s not what we’re living. If that’s not we’re doing, we can’t say we care about people.
Elisa Tuijnder: People that stops, that stops that director level. Right. And And they get to do whatever they want. Yeah.
Ken Schmidt: And when the executives running a business saying, Hey look. We have to focus first on our culture here [00:19:00] as we can’t delight customers. We can’t build a market. We can’t communicate well with customers if we’re not doing that internally here, we, we, we need to operate as a, as a single unit, as a, as a family.
We need to lift each other up and nurture each other. And this is not the desired behavior here. This is the expected behavior. This is what we are going to do. Essentially, if this isn’t something that you’re capable of or want to embrace, then you’re simply not going to work here. And people took that very seriously and said, I have to be closer to my, the people in my department and the people that are under me because I’m being watched now.
Leaders of the business expect me to be doing this. And if I’m not doing it, I’ll become replaceable and I don’t want to be replaceable. And pretty soon, you know, people being people. And kind of mirroring each other’s behavior. Started seeing, hey, you know what, employees seem to like what we’re doing now the way [00:20:00] we’re, you know, showing active interest in them, soliciting their opinions on things instead of just telling them what to do, creating opportunities to have fun together.
We need to keep doing this. Uh, and it’s like a contagion that catches fire. And once it catches fire, you, you, you can’t put it out. And that’s kind of the joy of the whole. That’s the joy of, of, of, of an aligned culture where people are proud of what they do, but also view their, their, their coworkers as friends.
Elisa Tuijnder: Yep. Yeah, absolutely. And, and, and you know, NALs, again, the shines through everywhere. And like you said, leading by example I think is really important. I saw a really bad example of that the other day where the Zoom C-suite is now asked all of the people to come back to work back to the office, but they don’t have to.
And I thought for them as well to do this because it’s soon you build your brand on the whole, your product, on the whole, you can work from anywhere. We got you covered. And then not trusting their own employees to do [00:21:00] that. I thought that was so damaging for their sort of brand and for their people.
There’s a
Ken Schmidt: very loud message, doesn’t it? And I, I, I can tell you because I, I’ve seen this many times. If I am going to, uh, meet a CEO or a top. Leader of a business, especially if it’s somebody that’s new to the job and they say, you know, want you to come in and work with us to reshape our culture or reposition the business.
And the, the CEO will come down and meet me in the, in the lobby and we get in the elevator and we’re walking down the hall down his or her office and they’re just talking to me and they were walking right past people that work there. Mm-hmm. And I said, you, you’ve got a huge opportunity every time. You do something as simple as walking down the hall or going to get a cup of coffee.
Show interest in people. Introduce yourself to people ’cause they’re going to talk about you. I just saw the boss, I just saw the new guy. What was he like? [00:22:00] I don’t know. You know? But versus I just saw the new guy. He is really cool. I like, you know, we talk for 10 seconds, whatever that is. And he said, if you don’t think that makes a difference, you have no business having the job.
Elisa Tuijnder: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. There’s a lot of those bad examples there where they’re sort of, you know, they’re little island apart, and then there’s the rest of the, the mainland is over there.
Ken Schmidt: You can’t build a culture with invisible, unknown leadership because again, that that’s the behavior that we’re all modeling together.
Mm-hmm. The attitudes and the, the behavior of the leaders of the business, what they model is what we do. If they’re just talking about numbers and charts and graphs all the time, I. We decide very quickly. Well, that’s what’s important here by doing things faster and better and cheaper. So my job is to work faster.
I don’t like that. I’m not appreciate, you know, all, all the ugly things that happen when, when you don’t have an aligned culture, leadership that’s supporting it.
Elisa Tuijnder: [00:23:00] Absolutely, absolutely. In, in your, in your book, make Some Noise, which has a really cool cover of you on a motorcycle as well.
Ken Schmidt: Thank you.
Elisa Tuijnder: Is, uh, we also emphasize sort of being memorable and distinctive and, um, I wondered whether that sort of comes from, from the culture that you’re already building or is there sort of an extra mile that you have to go?
Ken Schmidt: First of memorability, to me, is the most important thing in not only business, but leadership and, and, and in our personal lives. Uh, because memorability is everything. Everyone in in the business world talks about, you know, a customer experience now, or employee experience,
Elisa Tuijnder: lifetime value. And,
Ken Schmidt: and most people don’t even know what that means ’cause they, everyone describes it differently.
Which is crazy. All experiences is what we remember. Mm-hmm. And if I’m doing business with you, and I remember nothing ’cause you just gave me what I wanted at the [00:24:00] price I expected to pay.
Elisa Tuijnder: Mm-hmm.
Ken Schmidt: Nothing happened. If you treated me poorly, I had, you know, I remember you for being a poor business that I don’t like.
If you were great and you were awesome and joyful and delightful and it was just a glorious experience, which rarely ever happens. That’s how I remember. So that, that’s all we’re talking about here. So memorability drives everything. It drives preference, it drives our reputation.
Elisa Tuijnder: Mm-hmm.
Ken Schmidt: It drives what people, you know, say about us, what they think about us.
And if we’re not focused on that, we’re focused on the wrong stuff. When I, when I first and the
Elisa Tuijnder: QuickBooks. Yeah. Yeah.
Ken Schmidt: My very first day of, uh, on the job at Harry Davidson, I posted in my office. Just a little sign that had three questions that said, what are people saying? What do we want them to say and what are we doing to get them to say it?
So what I’m saying there is, is what do we wanna be remembered for? [00:25:00] That’s what we have to be, and we have to push all the proper buttons and exhibit the behavior that makes that real enough for people that they’re going to remember us, they’re gonna like us, they’re gonna prefer us, and they’re gonna talk about us the way we wanna be talked about.
The great thing about those three simple questions is they absolutely. I mean, if I’m a leader of a business, that’s my number one priority. What are people saying about me? What do I want them to be saying about me? Because that’s when they’re talking about me, they’re talking about this business, right?
And what am I doing to get them to say it? So what behavior do I need to exhibit? How do I need to treat people? How do I need to make people feel when they’re around me so that they remember me, they come back for more. They wanna spend time with me, they. Believe what I say. They, they, they like me. You know, all these important things that, and most people just overlook or assume that, you know, because I’m the leader of the business people, you know, people naturally respect me.
Well, here’s no they [00:26:00] don’t they to
Elisa Tuijnder: your face. Yeah. Yeah.
Ken Schmidt: Maybe they don’t know. They, they know nothing about you.
Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. Yeah, one of the, one of the, the quotes that a lot of times when we talk about strong workplace cultures and how important it is, and there’s one of these quotes that, that always sticks in my head as well, and that’s, uh, it’s from Adam Grant and, and he said like, strong workplace cultures are very valuable.
They’re the ones that get you forward. But there’s also pitfall with strong workplace cultures because if you just only have people who think the same, there’s become so homogenous over time, then you’re basically building a cult. So you need to be constantly be aware that. You know, you have to have strong, diverse thinkers who can inject that new lifeblood in, in, because exactly where you came into Harley-Davidson as well, how to inject sort of diverse perspectives as well.
Ken Schmidt: Uh, that’s, that’s a, it’s a great question, a great way of looking at it. One of the, the core tenets of Harley-Davidson’s approach to business in the world is individuality. So in a sea of like-minded people. From a customer standpoint, we create [00:27:00] opportunities for you to stand out. That’s through the clothing and, and customizing your vehicles.
The, the same applies inside the business because it has to, if you celebrate individuality means that you do have a voice. Your voice counts. Your voice is important, which, and there’s so many ways to bring that out. It’s not, Hey, if we’ve got a problem to solve, here’s what I want you to do. It’s, Hey, we’ve got a problem to solve.
How would you do it? What would you do if you were me if you were in charge of this? What, what would you do first? And if you ask enough people that, first of all, they, they feel important because they are, uh, you are you, you hear divergent ideas that help you pick the, you know, the, the best one. So it’s not just one person deciding what what’s going to happen.
And what you also get is that if people feel that they’re part of a process, they’re more loyal to the process. I, I, I’m way more likely to support something that I’ve [00:28:00] been involved in, that I was a, a part of that I helped create versus something that was just, you know, shoved down my throat, which is what you get at most Bus.
Here’s the new plan. Well, nobody asked me. I’m the one who has to do it. That’s not fair.
Elisa Tuijnder: Absolutely. Internal comms is important there very much. Well,
Ken Schmidt: and that, and, and that’s to get, to get back to the cultish thing, that’s the people at the top have all to say and, and, and we just blindly follow and. But over time, that never works.
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Hey. So you help other people now that you’ve gone through that process and, and were very successful. So you now help, uh, help other people. Do you wanna tell us a little more about that, about how you sort of coach and guide and, and do leadership programs with, with, with others around this?
Ken Schmidt: Sure. The, the, it was all an outgrowth of, I’ve started, uh, being a public speaker about 20 years ago and that.
Took off in ways that would’ve never jumped possible. Yeah. So it’s been absolutely wonderful and fun and takes me all over the, all over the world. And as an outgrowth [00:30:00] of that company, leaders would come up and say, uh, you know, this is all, this is an interesting look at the world that in the world of business and, and, and how we operate, uh, that I’ve not seen or even thought about, but it clearly works.
Could you come in and train our people? You know, how, how to reposition, how we do our business, what we prioritize, how we become memorable and, and preferable and distinct in our marketplace, and help us keep employees. And so I started a business with a partner called Torque Sessions, uh, Tor, T-O-R-Q-U-E.
That’s the. Uh, in, in motorsports, that’s the power that pushes you away from the starting line. It’s way different than horsepower. Way better than horsepower. Uh, and we go in those four
Elisa Tuijnder: horses, haven’t they suffered enough them all? They truly have. They truly have. We
Ken Schmidt: count on them too much. Uh, so that it, it, it’s, it’s.
Great fun for me to get exposed to [00:31:00] so many different businesses and so many different industries, and to see all the common threads that flow through businesses and the way they approach their markets and the very, very common mistakes that businesses make every day. And so many times they know they’re not doing it right, but they do it anyway.
Uh, which. I find it, you know, is, you know, I, I, I, I, I giggle about it when I’m not in their presence, but at the same time, it’s like, you know, we all do, we’re, we’re, we’re all guilty of doing things that we know it could be doing differently and better and more successfully, but we’re so trapped in this pattern of doing what we did yesterday.
Mm-hmm. That, we’ll, you know, we’ll just accept that. So I love helping businesses get past that too. You know? Uh, I’m all about improving competitiveness to become dominant. I. There are buttons that we can push and things that we can do within a business that are going to make you more likable, more competitive, [00:32:00] and ultimately more dominant.
And. That’s what everybody wants.
Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. Yeah. What do you see as like sort of the most pervasive or the most problematic things coming at our way at the moment? You know, we, there’s, there was a pandemic, there was, uh, there, there’s ai, all of these kind of things. What, what do you think is sort of, what should businesses currently be mindful for in order to stay competitive as well as to in order to maintain their core values and, and, um, and their, their, their, their, yeah, their purpose.
Basically
Ken Schmidt: what most businesses fail to do. Let me rephrase this. What most businesses do is they get very, very laser focused on improving their processes.
Elisa Tuijnder: Mm-hmm. And we see
Ken Schmidt: this all the time. We’re gonna, whatever technology is available, whatever tools are available to help us do what we do faster, better, and cheaper.
There’s not a customer for any product or service in the world who cares how faster, better, cheaper you do. So what [00:33:00] businesses don’t do is view themselves, view their business the way a customer would. Look at it from the outside. What makes you different? Why would I prefer you over somebody else? Of course, you do a good job.
Of course, whatever it is you’re making or selling or or providing is good because everything is good. Now, I can’t tell you apart from your competitors because everyone’s doing the same. Thing, that’s not my fault. As the customer, that’s your fault. As the business is, you chose to behave the way your, your competitors do and made yourself a commodity.
That’s no way to survive long term. So many things that that businesses can and should be focused on rather than just driving efficiency. But everywhere I go, that’s the first thing I, yeah. We wanna talk about our marketing and yeah, we wanna talk about our social media presence and yeah, we wanna talk about the challenges that we’re having, attracting and keeping people.
But first [00:34:00] we need to focus on doing what we do faster, better, uh, cheaper, so that we can turn out more profit. And I said, wow, that’s a formula for disaster. No matter what you’re doing, no matter how well you do it, somebody else will do it just as well or better. For less money and sell it for less money.
Well, now where are you?
Elisa Tuijnder: Hmm?
Ken Schmidt: How do you compete against that? You, you, all you are known for is what you do. And if all you’re known for is what you do, you’re not competitive. You need to be known for who you are. The human qualities that drive a business is what makes it distinct and memorable and separates it from everybody else.
Mm-hmm. And that’s, that’s the lesson that’s hard for business leaders to accept. They think it’s all about, you know, efficiency and and profitability, and they don’t think in terms of memorability, humanity, the human drivers of a business. And the more we move into the digital world, [00:35:00]the more challenging it becomes for businesses to present and showcase their humanity.
But it’s easy to do.
Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it, it really is. I wonder sometimes, whether this is also a problem from the way we structure businesses, especially multinationals and especially these larger conglomerates who are beholden to a board that only focuses on, on, on the reports and on the dividends that they get paid, get paid out on, uh, and that’s they, the CEOs or the, the directors underneath that know if they don’t match that, you know, they’re gonna, they’re gonna leave and they.
Aren’t sort of focusing on the bigger part, they’re just looking, or the board members sometimes, but they’re just looking for, you know, what happened this year and, and, and, and, and sort of what was my investment worth Sometimes, right?
Ken Schmidt: Businesses that are run for numbers will always and forever be challenged because eventually they’re gonna run into a downturn in those numbers that they can’t recover from because they only do one thing and [00:36:00] that’s produce.
A product or a service and sell it. Mm-hmm. And they have competition that’s doing the same thing. So you can only squeeze so many pennies or so much juice out of
Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah.
Ken Schmidt: A lemon before you run out and say, well, what else have you got? You know, what are the things that people remember and associate with your business?
And if, if we’re not as a business focused on that. What do we want people to think about this business? What do we want them to say about it and what are we doing to ensure that they do? If we don’t focus on that, if we, if we don’t take advantage of kind of simple drivers of human behavior mm-hmm. And use them to our advantage, we will eventually struggle.
If we’re not struggling now, it can’t always be about the business. What I, what I would say to the, the businesses that make stuff. Sell stuff. If, if, if you live by product, you will die by it. Mm-hmm. Because somebody else is going to do it
Elisa Tuijnder: better. Yeah. Better, faster, other wider way that [00:37:00] is new or, yeah.
Ken Schmidt: And if the, if buyers don’t prefer you because they like you more.
Not like the product, more like you as a business, like what you believe in, like the behavior that you exhibit, like what you do to help people, like the, the culture that you’ve created, like the joy that you bring to people. Whatever those things are, those human drivers that’s feeling absent. Humanity, you know, your commodity.
Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, absolutely. One, you need to be sure obviously who’s on your board and that kinda stuff that they might, you know, see that the right way. But is there any, like, any practical things that you could, ’cause obviously I, I’m sure you have dealt with resistance like this before, like, no, we need to have this amount of money by this quarter, or we need to do this, or we need to pin a bench.
How do you sort of educate or make sure that everyone is on board with us, that maybe we might not be getting hitting those targets right now, but because of that we might. Probably do better in the future. How, how was your, what was your strategy there?
Ken Schmidt: Uh, uh, of creating a a a change in mindset within a [00:38:00] business is difficult, but it, and par leasts proof, there’s lots of other companies are, are proof that it is absolutely possible.
Mm-hmm. If it, if and only if the executive leadership and hopefully under the guise of, you know, uh, directors, if there’s a board of directors
Elisa Tuijnder: mm-hmm.
Ken Schmidt: Believe in this and, and support it and are behind it. There are always going to be things that we can’t attach a metric
Elisa Tuijnder: to. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ken Schmidt: And business leaders love to have their, their, and they love
Elisa Tuijnder: this sheets.
Yeah. This spreadsheets and, and the grants. On the
Ken Schmidt: scale of one to five, how likely are you to buy our product? Again, you know, that those kind of, that are more tied frankly to, uh. The, the payment or bonuses paid to leaders than, mm-hmm. Than actually in any way instructive to the company. Because if you get lower average numbers, how likely are to buy, well get low, low numbers.
What do you do with [00:39:00] that data? Mm-hmm. Right? So, hey, we’ve got some data here. Well, what do we do with it? Could people don’t like us? Well now what do we do? Make our stuff cheaper? Well, somebody else will do that. It’s, it’s you, you, you, you, you are either a believer in the power of people and humanity and a business culture’s ability to shape the way a market perceives you, sees you, values you.
And let’s, let’s face it, a loyal, committed culture workforce, uh, costs an awful lot less than ones that have high turnover. The constant churn trading and retaining of employees is insane. It’s crazy. And people, and I hear that’s, that’s always one of the very, it’s always in the, at least the top three things of when I ask a business what their challenges are, that
Elisa Tuijnder: attrition rate, they
Ken Schmidt: more competitive.
Mm-hmm. More profit and keeping our people. And I say, well, why do people leave?
Elisa Tuijnder: Mm-hmm.
Ken Schmidt: They say, well, they, they [00:40:00] leave to get more money somewhere else. I go, I know you don’t believe that. It makes you feel better to say that, but you know it’s not real.
Elisa Tuijnder: Hmm.
Ken Schmidt: Do you ask, what efforts have you made to, to personalize this business?
Mm-hmm. How do you make people feel like they’re welcome and part of something? How do you feel that make them feel that they are absolutely important. Most employees, the only conversation they will ever have, the only personal conversation that they’ll ever have with their, you know, leader or their manager over the course of years when they’re having their performance review.
So here you are in an at, in an environment of discomfort and nervousness, you know, talking about yourself and your goals, and, and, and oftentimes, you know, you’re hearing a lot of criticism about what you’re not doing right. So that, that was your one big conversation about you. The boss
Elisa Tuijnder: in a structured questionnaire that feels very impersonal at the same time because
Ken Schmidt: it is, it, yeah, it creates a lot of [00:41:00] fear and anxiety for people and it would’ve, instead, you simply ask somebody, Hey, where do you wanna go with your life?
And how can I help you get there? Well, now I’m showing an interest in you. Tell me about you. Right? And maybe you’re an entry level person. You don’t wanna be running this machine your whole life. Where do you wanna go? What would you like to. Would you like to be in management? Would you like to own your own business someday?
Well, how can I help that help you get there? There’s things I’m gonna expect from you.
Elisa Tuijnder: Mm-hmm. Then it’s an exchange and it’s no longer a demand. And that indeed, well, it was always an exchange in, in for money. But then the exchange becomes way bigger and then the value proposition becomes way more valuable for the employee as well.
Ken Schmidt: Someone is showing an interest in me and, and this is such a huge disconnect, uh, especially with young people entering the workforce who are under the belief that somebody is looking out for them. And more often than not, [00:42:00] nobody’s looking out. For them, uh, you know, your, your mom’s not here anymore to mm-hmm.
To go tell other people. You know that you don’t feel well, uh, and that you can’t come into work tomorrow as you, first of all, you have to stand up for yourself. But secondly, in a, in a business where you don’t feel welcome, wanted value, depreciated, your input’s not sought on things where you are rendered invisible, which is how it is at most places, that’s an employee’s gonna leave.
I’m not happy. I will go somewhere else where maybe I’ll be happier over there.
Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Or even worse, right? You know, you might feel invisible, but, or even worse, the workplace culture is toxic and like you have to literally gear yourself up to get into, into battle every day. And, and, and that also happens more often than not, unfortunately.
Ken Schmidt: And in, in an in personal environment, just. Breeds the toxicity. You just, I don’t know why I’m your, I’m not valued, I’m not liked then, so [00:43:00] therefore I don’t like you for whatever reason, and I can tell you what to do, or I can be rude to you. You know, all, all of those other things that people do
Elisa Tuijnder: because they’re frustrated themselves and then it just trickles down.
And unhappy
Ken Schmidt: art, when they don’t feel good about themselves, they take it out on others.
Elisa Tuijnder: Absolutely. And that’s also the culture of accountability needs to be there for, for not tolerating those things. And, but you know, it’s a bigger project than just that. You can’t just say no longer being, no more than this, no more being rude, no more being that right.
It, it comes, it comes from everywhere. And like I said, this, this, this culture, and it is to be, and it has to also come from the top.
Ken Schmidt: Uh, I, I, I learned this, uh, in, of all, all strange places, whereas in Lithuania and somebody from Great Britain. Told me this, and I, and I never forgot it because he said that the secret for him, whether he is at a party, uh, whether he is talking to employees, whether he is sitting next to somebody on a plane, he goes, I learned a long time ago the value of being interested instead of interesting.[00:44:00]
Elisa Tuijnder: That
Ken Schmidt: means, rather than talking about myself and my great job and my career, I’m gonna ask you about your job, your life, and whatever it is you’re telling me. I’m going to react with great enthusiasm. ‘
Elisa Tuijnder: cause
Ken Schmidt: when I do that, it makes people feel so good about themselves.
Elisa Tuijnder: Mm-hmm.
Ken Schmidt: Someone’s listening to me, and again, that’s human behavior.
I’m, I will come back from, I will seek you out. I wanna spend more time with you because you showed an interest in me. And then you think, well, why can’t we do that In the places where we work? Well, we absolutely can, but most choose not to.
Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. Yeah. And often these things often don’t even. They don’t need to necessarily cost a lot of money as well.
They can start with small changes. They can start with, it has to just sort of permeate everywhere and it doesn’t need to be the, the pizza party and the picnic and all these kind of things, but it has to sort of, you know, meander through everything and everywhere. And that doesn’t necessarily need to be expensive in, in that way.
Ken Schmidt: Right. No, because the, the expensive stuff tends to [00:45:00] be the stuff that is forced. Mm-hmm. Here is a program and we are going to implement this program and boy did. Business cultures hate programs. Uh, when it’s happening organically though, we begin to notice that I, I’m hearing a different tone coming from the people above me are my fellow employees, or there’s more of a pleasantness, and I’m, I’m, my opinions are being sought on things that weren’t sought before.
So you, you begin to notice that, and that becomes the behavior that you model. And so the people around you see that you’re doing that and it’s almost a, it’s contagious.
Elisa Tuijnder: You guide the culture, you don’t prescribe the culture
Ken Schmidt: just like toxicity is contagious. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. Absolutely. Uh, super interesting.
Thank you. Thank you so much for, for running me through. All the things that you’ve done at Harley, but uh, be before we wrap up, we always have to leave our listeners with sort of a practical thing that they don’t need. Mm-hmm. The buy, the buy-in from the senior leadership that we talked about. Uh, something [00:46:00] that they can sort of, you know, start practicing as fast as possible.
Something easy something. Memorable. Um, just making it even harder for you while I keep talking. So have you got any practical or practical tips or practices in mind when I say that?
Ken Schmidt: Yeah, I do. A few minutes ago I mentioned the three questions that I posted off the top of my office. What are people saying?
What do we want them to say and what are we doing to get them to say it? What I always tell folks to is think of that second question. What do I want people to say about me? Not, you know, from a business perspective, what do we want them to say about our business? But if we’re talking individual, what do I want people to say about me?
When someone is talking about you, whether they’re considering who they might be giving a raise or a promotion to, what would you want them to say and what you never want to do as be described the same way that other people are described. She’s a hard worker,
Elisa Tuijnder: uh, you know,
Ken Schmidt: good, you know, looks good on paper or whatever is.
And you also don’t want to be described by what you do. [00:47:00] She’s an accountant, he’s an engineer, a good engineer, you know, a good accountant, uh, because that makes you a commodity. We don’t wanna be known for what we do. We wanna be known for who we are. So what I always challenge people to do is sit down at the beginning of the day and just write down three to five words or phrases that you would want people to identify uniquely with.
You, you know, I want, I want, when I, if someone’s talking about me, I want them talking about how passionate I am about, about how I like to make things fun. You know, that really committed family guy. I’m a great friend and when I do that, I, I incorporate that language when I’m talking to people. That’s why I’m here, you know, I’m, I’m Mr.
Passionate. Uh, and when you, if you do that enough over time. That that’s what people remember and that that’s the word that they use when they’re describing you. You mentioned the word lifestyle earlier.
Elisa Tuijnder: Mm-hmm.
Ken Schmidt: Yeah. That’s what we do. What, what are [00:48:00] three to five words that we want people to identify with us?
Lifestyle, freedom, individuality, camaraderie, rebellion. You could do the exact same thing for yourself. ’cause if you’re not focused on. Driving and building your reputation. Well, somebody else will do that for you.
Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. When you’re not in the room and, um, exactly. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. It’s a very, very good tip and anyway, definitely recommend at least everybody to know what those words are already, you know, because some people are maybe even step behind that.
Like, what is it actually that I want other people to say about me? Right.
Ken Schmidt: And, and, and always, always, always tell people is don’t make it about what you do. Mm-hmm. Attach. Human qualities, human language, emotion, wherever possible, because it makes you different immediately. But people remember.
Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, he’s, he’s, he’s not an engineer.
He just loves making things or, or like I, yeah, I love making things. And that makes a big difference already in that, in that scenario. Such
Ken Schmidt: a cool guy or funny guy, what? Whatever that is, [00:49:00] uh mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolute. Whatever. That’s human thing, because that’s what people will remember. Otherwise they’ll describe.
He’s an engineer. Well, so what?
Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. And there and 500
Ken Schmidt: million other people
Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. And to that are also stereotypes linked and all of that kinda stuff that then come with that. So, Ken, super interesting. I, I’d love, uh, for people to know where to go. Listen to your podcast and, and find the, the, the, the wonderful book that you wrote or even see what, uh, speaking engagements you’ve got coming up.
So where can they do that?
Ken Schmidt: The easiest place to go is to my website ken speaks.com. Uh, my. Podcast, that new season is going to, uh, be released in the next week or two, is called Tailgating with Geniuses. Um, brilliant man, since I talk with really, really smart, successful, wonderful people from business and media, sports, entertainment, uh, have a lot of fun with that.
Uh, or can just simply find me on LinkedIn if you wanna ask a question or something. LinkedIn’s the easiest way to do that.
Elisa Tuijnder: Perfect. Well, we’ll link the, [00:50:00] definitely the website where people can branch out further to you on our show notes. So thank you Ken, again for taking the time. I really enjoyed this.
Ken Schmidt: Well, thank you for having me. It was a lot of fun.
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