LIMITED SUMMIT SERIES: Crossover episode with “Thriving with Sarah & Jenny”

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Today we’re so excited to bring you a crossover episode recorded with our friends over at the “Thriving with Sarah & Jenny” podcast, featuring hosts Sarah Metcalfe and Dr. Jenny Brockis. It was a true international get-together, with Sarah visiting her family in Canada, Jenny in Australia, and Elisa in the United Kingdom.

Elisa, Sarah, and Jenny talked about the upcoming Forward Summit titled “Happiness as the ‘Why’ in Agile Transformations,” how each host experienced the pandemic, the rise of workplace surveillance, Management 3.0’s “12 Steps to Happiness,” and some practical tips for filling up your happiness toolbox to have a happier life and more fulfilling career.

Find more from Sarah and Jenny on their podcast webpage.

Have you ever pondered the following questions?

  • How do we give people and their happiness the attention they deserve in our organizations and transformations?
  • How do we enable change for people and not push change on people?
  • How do we create the culture and environment we need for people to express themselves?

Of course, you have! That’s why you listen to our podcast. But while podcasts are a one-way street, our Forward Summits are all about interactions.

Anna Löw will present a case study on their move to a 32 hours work week, the pitfalls, and their successes.

So come and join the conversation at our upcoming summit: HAPPINESS AS THE ‘WHY’ IN AGILE TRANSFORMATION, held in Berlin, Germany, and Online from 30 November – 2 December 2022,

You’ll get to hear from our kick-ass keynote speakers Sunny Grosso; Svenja Hofert; Debra Corey; and Fransisco Mahfuz. Take part in our practice, case study, open, and global networking sessions in Berlin and online!

Go to our designated Forward Summit Website for more info and tickets.


*Please note that the transcript has been automatically generated and proofread for mistakes. But remains in spoken English, and some syntax and grammar mistakes might remain.

Elisa Tuijnder: [00:00:00] Today we have something special for you, a crossover episode with our friends over at “Thriving with Sarah and Jenny”. The hosts are Sarah Metcalf and Dr. Jenny Brockis. We had a true international get-together where Sarah was visiting her family in Canada, Jenny in Australia, and myself in the United Kingdom.

We talked about the topic of our upcoming Forward Summit, Happiness as to why in agile transformations, what happened to all of us during the pandemic, the rise of workplace surveillance, the Management 3.0 – 12 steps to Happiness. And we ended on practical tips on what to have in your happiness toolbox to have a happier life and fulfilling career.

Before we dive in, you are listening to a limited series by the happiness at work podcast by Management 3.0 where we are getting serious about happiness.

We are currently in the run up to our Forward Flagship Summit. Which will be held from 30 November to 02 December live in Berlin and from your computer screens this year is all about “Happiness as the why in agile transformations”. In this limited series, we’ll be speaking to partners, conference speakers, and those with ultimate know out about happiness in agile transformations, we’ll be publishing regular in the run up to the Summit.

So make sure to subscribe, so you won’t miss a beat and do keep listening for a special promo code for our podcast enthusiasts, thinking about joining [00:02:00] our summit.

Sarah Metcalfe: Welcome to this very special episode of Thriving with Sarah and Jenny. We’re doing an exciting crossover podcast. With the lovely Elisa Tuijnder. I haven’t said that entirely correctly, so [00:02:00] you can correct. It’s fine in a moment. Who’s joining us from Management 3.0 today, and we are gonna do a little crossover, talk about all things happiness and some things agile, I think.

Yeah. So that’s really exciting. Thank you so much for joining us, Elisa. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Thank you so much for having me. So much for coming up with this idea. 

Sarah Metcalfe: I’m excited. So a quick introduction to yourself. You’re a digital engagement specialist with the history of creating inclusive and sustainable spaces for knowledge sharing, which sounds incredible.

And I know I’ve been a part of a little part of some of those, which is incredible. And since working for Management 3.0. You have followed your passion for the science of happiness and positive psychology, and you are now the host of the Management 3.0 Happiness at Work podcast, and you organized some incredible global events and your mission is Agile leadership for happier people and successful [00:03:00] organizations.

Absolutely. Which is. Something that Jenny and I can definitely get behind. So tell us if you don’t mind a little bit about, your path, how did you get here? And and we can share that with our 

Elisa Tuijnder: listeners. Yeah, so I I started out in academia where I did anthropology and I worked across the world with different type of research centers, and we always had these issues that when we wanted to get people to come to the UK or to the US.

Or, we wanted to bring a number of people together, especially from officially development assisted countries. That was really difficult because we have something in the UK that’s called the hostile environment. And just money wise, it’s really hard to bring a lot of people together.

So at that point I got already very excited and interested in kind of more sustainable and more easy ways to get together virtually. And that was way before the pandemic. And then when the pandemic hit, I was like, okay, [00:04:00] this is my chance. I was gonna try. Exactly. So I had some knowledge behind me and then left the university, left academia.

I tried to help other people create these spaces because I see a lot of value in knowledge sharing throughout the internet. Look at us today, we’re half in Australia, half uk. I’m not sure where you’re today, but it might be Canada . And we are all here together and sharing this across the world.

And that’s such a beautiful thing I think, And yeah, and then I got asked at one point to join the Management 3.0 team, which was for me a bit of a full circle thing because I started my career in management consultancy way before I went back to university to get, go back into academia.

And I just really enjoyed doing the podcast, the content creation around happiness at work, and started deep diving into positive psychology around it. And now I’m like, I need to go back to school. I [00:05:00] need to go get another master’s now. 

Sarah Metcalfe: Have you seen Tal Ben-Shahar is just launching his first masters in the study of hapiness.

First cohort starts this year. Yeah. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Cool. Yeah. You have to send me that. 

Sarah Metcalfe: Yeah. There you go. I’ll send you the . Fantastic. Oh, that’s wonderful. So I think your question that you asked for your episode is a great way for us to kick off. So I’m gonna, 

Elisa Tuijnder: Over to you. Absolutely. We start every episode with the same question, and we have 285 episodes at the moment where people answer this question, so we’re gonna do something with this.

What does happiness mean to you? So maybe Jenny, what does happiness mean to you? 

Jenny Brockis: It’s such a big question and no wonder you have 285 different answers. Social, I think happiness to me is that sense of contentment, calm and joy in what you do, what you’re doing regardless of your job title or anything like that?[00:06:00] 

It’s bigger than happiness itself. It’s that whole array of positive emotions that we can experience, which combined enable us to feel happy. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. Sarah, what about you? How do you feel about happiness? 

Sarah Metcalfe: Jenny said that. Jenny. I know. I was like, Oh, I know what I’m gonna say. And Jenny said mostly the same thing.

Oh, she stole your answer. 

Yeah. No It’s all right. That’s why we have a podcast together of what’s together. But. I think it’s this, the whole ray of positive emotions. Sometimes it’s that really the excitement and the fun and the buzz. And sometimes it’s like this morning where we’ve had really hot weather for three months.

I’ve been hot for three months and it was cool this morning and I sat outside. And the sun was rising, but I was chilly and I had a hot cup of coffee and I can see the steam [00:07:00] rising. So that is the same kind of happiness, but it’s different. It’s, that was happiness, but also, really achieving something with people or going out with my family and partying is happiness. That, that wide range and having space for all of them, I think is important. Not just chasing one or the other. And then there’s something else, I guess as I’ve got older, That is that contentment of acknowledgement and presence of where I am and and just accepting of that.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah , I feel that too. Every year I get older, I chase that sort of happiness instead of the crazy excitement that I loved in my twenties and early thirties. I still do, but Not as much, obviously. Not as much. 

Sarah Metcalfe: Yeah. Every now and. To be, 

Jenny Brockis: I think it’s just a [00:08:00] different quality of happiness that we experience at different ages as well.

And for me, happiness is, although we talk about, experiencing a whole array of positive emotions, for me, happiness also includes those times when I might be feeling a little bit wistful,a little bit sad, a little bit contemplative. It doesn’t have to be all positive.

Happiness can also be the acceptance piece around things aren’t quite as great as I’d like them to be, but I’m dealing with it and I’m okay. And I think especially at the moment yeah, to being true to ourselves, not chasing butterflies all the time. , even though it’d be great fun to chase.

But that’s not reality. Reality is we take the rough with the smooth, the good with the bad. And I think to experience happiness, we need to be able to have all of those sort of [00:09:00] interplaying to, to a certain 

Elisa Tuijnder: extent. Absolutely. And my definition of happiness also changed over the pandemic. It’s massively changed, actually, over the pandemic.

Yeah. I really rediscovered family time and not chasing like the next high and the next travel and the next, I was forced to sit down and be and I’m really happy that happened because, I like, enjoy, I enjoy spending lots of my time with my family and in a whole different kind of way than I used to just flying in and going back out.

And it’s yeah, made that a bit easier and also made my life a little bit calmer in that sense. It’s still quite high intensity when it comes to move, moving around, but less so than it was before the pandemic. Fantastic. 

Sarah Metcalfe: I love that. I’d love for our listeners as well, to, to reflect.

Did anything shift for them? Because I think I, I had quite a similar [00:10:00] slow transition over the pandemic. It reminded me of that quote, and I can’t remember who said it that once I knew, then I forgot. Now I remember and that’s how I, that’s how I feel. I exited the pandemic is like, Oh yeah, I used to.

This used to be enough for me, . Yeah. And so 

I, totally could resonate with that, Elisa. So I would love to ask you, because you are all about agile, and I know agile and happiness go together. I worked very much in the kind of digital world where we did a lot of agile, But I would love to hear from yourself who’s really entrenched in that.

Maybe let’s just start, how do they go together For anyone who’s going, What is 

Elisa Tuijnder: agile? 

Sarah Metcalfe: Yeah, what is agile? What are they talking 

Elisa Tuijnder: about? What is agile? So agile is actually, agile started a number of [00:11:00] years ago, almost 20 years ago, or even over 20 years ago, because time seems to fly really fast with an agile manifesto written by a number of prominent people in the software development industry.

And it was a way to reorganize the way we made software. Whereby before that it was like a waterfall structure. You first did this and then you got to go to the next thing, and then you got to go to the next thing and you had to wait for somebody else to finish the other thing, whilst now it’s more of a mismatch like, you can start on that and you can start on that.

And we actually we actually embrace that change and embrace that agility o of these things. Because actually nothing is very static. And one of the things that they said and their first line of that manifesto was actually individuals and interactions over processes and tools, which is very funny when you think about software development.

So they were actually saying back then, no, individuals and interactions are actually way more [00:12:00] important than your processes and tools. So they actually said, so at the core, they believe that agile is about the mushy stuff. Delivering good products to good to customers, but by actually seeing their people first and not seeing them as an asset, actually, really living by the fact that.

The people are creating this, which was back then, I think some form, somewhat revolutionary. And they already saw lots of different paths for Agile. It wasn’t just software development and it isn’t just software development. It comes from software development, but it can be adopted in like many different forms.

But what’s happened over the years, and I’ve spoken to one of the authors about the agile manifesto about this is people started making methodologies around this and started making structures around this to because it’s really hard for us as human beings without any like tools to hold onto any anchor points.

We always need to create these kind of things, but these sort of almost abusing them. So just [00:13:00] using these methodologies instead of. Thinking back, what was the first step? These individuals and interactions over processes and tools? Cuz the idea is that, you have less layers of management and less bureaucracy and it’s just all faster.

But instead, what sometimes happen is that people just adopt these frameworks and it’s just a way to control employees a little bit better. So my brother is a very young software engineer and he, whenever he hears the word agile, he goes . Because for him, that is just a way to control him better and to know what he is doing every second at every day.

And that’s really what, it’s really not what it’s about. It’s really about the people first, and that’s what we’re trying to really reiterate and bring back in, and that people first is happiness first as well. 

Sarah Metcalfe: Yeah, 

Jenny Brockis: absolutely. It’s so interesting that you say this was 20 years ago that, this was first being talked about, here we are 20 years [00:14:00] later where it seems to be still something that we are bringing to the surface to get more people at work and in the business world to think about, putting people first. What do you think the biggest obstacles have been? Now why haven’t we embraced it more readily beforehand?

Elisa Tuijnder: I think sometimes you don’t fix what’s not broken, right? So it was work the way that was going. Things were going before was working in some kind of way and. Even the reasons why people are adopting agile now are not out of altruism or not out of, concern for their workers.

It’s so they can go to market faster. It’s so they can, have better operational excellence and more things to it. And they keep forgetting that actually if we have better employees, if we have more engaged employees, if we have happier employees, we also have better products at the end. But it’s so hard to get that into people’s minds.[00:15:00] 

Or especially, the, in this capitalist kind of environment where it’s just okay money first. And instead of standing still for a second and thinking, Hey, but actually my better employees are gonna make, are gonna be more engaged in the long run.

They’re gonna stay longer, retention is gonna be better. That costs me a lot of money actually, to get new people. But yeah, it just feels, somehow, I think it’s, the long time of doing things a certain way, but the pandemic is changing that a little bit, although I also see things now moving towards a very different direction.

Again, it was, first it was great and people were like, Oh yeah, okay, we gotta support workers and it’s such a hard time. And, the pandemic this and the pandemic that, and. The C-Suite also felt the problems of the pandemic. They were also isolated, so they were like, Oh, if I’m struggling, they must be struggling as well.

And all of a sudden there was some kind of empathy or more empathy toward in, in these things. But now [00:16:00] it’s already dwindling a little bit. And we are still struggling obviously, right? We have all these other challenges in the form of war and inflation that is gonna reach insane levels in this winter.

And yet we’re back to focus like not fully, but a lot of companies seem to be back on productivity and not making sure that their workers are happy first. Which will lead them to more output. It’s not just about altruism, right? It’ll lead to more business success in the future.

Maybe not in the short term, but even in the short term. It works if you have people who leave when as soon as you hire them, it’s incredibly expensive. 

Sarah Metcalfe: I just wanna clap everything you say.

Elisa Tuijnder: Have you ever wondered about one of the following questions? How do [00:17:00] we give people and their happiness, the attention they deserve in our organizations and transformations? How do we enable change for people and not push change on people. How do we create the culture and environment we need for people to express themselves?

Of course you have. That’s why you listen to our podcast. But while podcasts are a one way street, our summits are all about interactions. So why don’t you come join the conversation with our kick ass keynote speakers, Sunny Grosso, Svenja Hofert, Debra Corey, and Francisco Mahfuz. Take part in our practice sessions, case study sessions, open sessions and global networking, both in Berlin and online.

Go to That is [00:18:00] For more info and tickets and as a podcast listener, use the code FORWARDPOD at checkout that is FORWARDPOD. To let us know you are a friend of the pod and receive some special Martie the Management Monster goodies.

Jenny Brockis: But it’s also a great example of how we default to our default way of thinking. We have this massive thing occur, like a global pandemic doesn’t get much bigger than that. And everybody gets, Whoa, we’ve gotta do things differently and we’ve gotta be better and. It’s very much what I’m now sensing too.

I’d be interested to hear what Sarah’s gonna say, but here in Australia, while, there are lots of CEOs and business leaders saying, Yes, we’re gonna put people first. We’re gonna be human centric. It’s all be about health and wellbeing. [00:19:00] Crickets. So for some they’ve gone very quiet, and now we’ve got this quiet quitting going on, which is really a passive aggressive form of employees taking things into their own hands because they can see that the leaders, even though they initially had the good thought I’m going to follow it through because they’ve gone back to their previous way of doing because that’s where they know to do things. And so people are doing things with their, voting with their feet, . 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, 

Jenny Brockis: exactly. So I’ll be interested to see what Sarah says about this and where this is going to take us. Can we put people first? Back on the map, can we actually achieve a more engaged humanistic workforce or are we barking up the wrong tree and on hiding to nothing,[00:20:00] 

Sarah Metcalfe: Well, I agree wholeheartedly. What I saw was exactly what you both have described, this great movement, and there was a point, and I think we had it on the podcast Jenny, where I went, I think this is it. I think we’ve realized, I think, we’re going to be, the one great thing that will come out of this is we will have shifted our thinking.

And then unfortunately, yes, there’s neural pathways and what we know is hard even though it’s not actually, it’s so interesting, isn’t it? It’s not hard. This is, I think, the way that, that we all feel about what we should be doing at. It’s actually easier. It’s less we have less perceived control and I would distinguish that as perceived control. Cause I don’t think leaders or anyone have ever had the kind of control that they feel they have. [00:21:00] But they have maybe had tangible numbers or tangible, you know that, nine is better than eight and 10 is better than nine, and 11 is better than right. So this becomes, Oh, okay, we must be doing well.

But yeah, my, my experience as well as my observation is Yeah, we sadly have just gone, Ooh, back and back to it. And in some cases, again, I dunno if you guys have had this experience, it’s worse. So I was running a workshop a number of months ago, and it was all about creating a culture of great customer experience.

And we were talking about freedom and doing the right thing. And this this leader was very clear that’s what they wanted to do, and they had just implemented the software. That tracks your movements on your laptop. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. , I was just about to say like [00:22:00] the New York Times came out with for me today, yesterday, with a whole study about workplace surveillance and how widespread it is and how incredibly problematic it is for workers, because workers are now, some companies are actually paying people based on how many clicks they do, on how many hours they and the invasion of privacy.

So they’re basically constantly either constantly filming or making a screenshot and a picture of you every 10 minutes. I think Europe, there might be some, and in the UK some GDPR issues there. I would 

hope so. I would hope so. 

Yeah, getting paid and it all comes from the software that Amazon used to use or still uses, to track every movement and every, that extreme control and that extreme productivity, seeing workers, what we call as management 1.0 as little tools in your toolbox and [00:23:00] not as what they are.

So that’s now kinda seeping into the knowledge worker side. And I dunno about you guys, but I, if I can’t be trusted by my employer to do my job, or, and I’m getting tracked on the amount of clicks or the amount of movements I do on my computer, that’s not how it works. Like I have to sit there sometimes and think I’m on the phone with somebody.

I need to ask information from somebody and to spitball about things. I don’t know. We can’t quantify this, I think, in my opinion. I know. I’m like, where are we going with this? Cuz that’s a very scary future. If that is, if that we’re getting paid on the amount of, times and, or you’re getting called into a meeting because you were idle more than 15 minutes because you opene the door for the dog, or you went to go get a cup of tea.

Sarah Metcalfe: Or you picked your kids up from school. 

Yeah. That’s 

Elisa Tuijnder: That’s not working from home anymore. That’s just like surveillance. Oh. 

Sarah Metcalfe: It’s just, it’s so [00:24:00] frustrating, isn’t it? It’s and also we know the science that backs up. Yeah. That type of management does the complete opposite to what I hear these companies would like the outcomes to be.

Oh. So I, we’ve talked all about some of these negative, horrible things, and we dig into that productivity, and I’ve toxic productivity, but I know we only have a certain of time. Who or who’s doing it well, who has taken this and run with it? 

Elisa Tuijnder: So there’s always the usual suspects like a Pixar or a Spotify or Netflix who or Google.

They love experimenting with these things. They’re often like, there’s trailblazers for the rest of us and they, they have the capital behind them as well to do these things. [00:25:00] But one of the people that I really wanted to highlight that have been really really. Following and she has this newsletter that comes out every Sunday.

And it actually isn’t workplace happiness, but this is just general Happiness is a woman called Stephanie Harrison, and she created something called The New Happy. And the way she her visuals to go with it. I just, they her newsletter makes me happy every Sunday and gives me inspiration for the rest of the week.

So it’s not a, it’s not a, an at work happiness kind of thing, but I would really recommend everybody just to sign up for that newsletter because it’s that little burst of joy for me then Monday morning I opened my computer and I got to this lovely newsletter and it’s about, her vision on.

On happiness is, it’s about a servitude happiness. If we, what, actually, what really makes us happy is actually giving [00:26:00] and not taking. And there’s a bit more to that obviously, but it’s about authenticity and compassion and meaning and service. It’s not about, oh, everything me and I dunno.

It’s kind of those things that. Still give me some happiness, in life in all the bleak things that I then listen to because then I put on the podcast and say, and then I hear about workplace surveillance and then my mood goes , I have, go back to that newsletter you were fighting. The 

Sarah Metcalfe: good fight, Elisa, Don’t, 

Elisa Tuijnder: don’t day every 

Sarah Metcalfe: day.

So yeah. Yeah. 

Jenny Brockis: There was a news article that came out today about our tennis champion, who’s retired from tennis now, Ash Barty, and she has now announced what her new role is, and that is as Chief Inspiration Officer for Optus, and I thought, Wow. And I thought, what a [00:27:00] beautiful role to have and the perfect person to put into it because she is somebody who, she makes you feel good as soon as you hear about her because of her personality, her work ethic, her tenacity, her perseverance and her generosity of spirit. I think, when we are talking about how to give everybody that little whoop of joy, she’s got it in spades because she just engenders that genuinely from her heart. So I thought, oh. She is another great example of somebody who, she could have carried on playing tennis for years and earned lots and lots of money, et cetera, et cetera, but she had something, a bigger game that she wanted to play by being involved in an organization such as Optus, where she can, She says she can see that she can make a positive difference to support others to become the people they want to be. And I thought, yes, bring on [00:28:00] Ash. So we do need those little snippets of encouragement from those people we hear about in, in our world because they are the change makers. They are the people who I think will help keep us on track to remind us all of our humanity.

And guide us in a more positive direction. 

Elisa Tuijnder: yeah, it’s always the small things that really help. So at Management 3.0, we have a practice called 12 Steps of Happiness or to Happiness, And they’re all kind of small things and it’s thank somebody, give something, help somebody, socialize, smile.

All these things that don’t actually cost that much. And we encourage leaders and managers to not, obviously lead by example, but also create those spaces for people to be able to exercise, to be able to socialize, to be able to know, eat well. And it’s [00:29:00] the small things that really help in these kind of spaces and especially, appreciation is such a big part in that because we all get happy and somebody says, Thank you you, you just automatically give, get a smile on your face and that it’s in combination with some of these inspirational figures.

It’s a really powerful tool. Yeah. 

Sarah Metcalfe: And I think that’s, Sorry, we, I just, we I’m doing some contract work and we just had an we just had a, like a sprint review. And we started, instead of just going through and doing the review I said, Oh, could we, cause I’m new to the team, so can we start by doing a achievements and thank yous?

And it brought, literally brought tears to my eyes and everyone just, it was so incredible. You think that it’s all, it’s so simple. It’s almost it almost [00:30:00] forgotten. Feels. Yeah, but that was it. They were like we were so busy before we couldn’t do this. But it was so incredible to see what people appreciated, to see how important the connection with each other was, and this, those tiny, small, We took two minutes to just write down, what we were proud of, what we were happy.

And the vibe for the rest of the day was just out of this world. So I love those, the 12 Steps to Happiness and people can go onto the website to, to check 

Elisa Tuijnder: those out. Yeah. So there’s a big poster that we have in multiple languages. So from Japanese to Spanish to the, you can download it, hanging it up in the office, and its

And then you’ll find all of our practices. And 12 Steps to Happiness is one of them. And yeah, I encourage everybody to hang if you are still in the office or put it in your home office, and just print it out [00:31:00] and hang it there cuz it’s just these small things that really happen. And like you also said, Jenny sorry, Sarah to leave to make the space for it.

To, because sometimes we, sometimes when you ask how are you expect Oh, I’m good, I’m fine. But actually creating that space and. Give me little bit, a little bit more. And that’s the same with those thank yous. The same with those appreciations really giving a designated time and space for it really helps.

Because otherwise, yeah, they’re almost forgotten because we think they’re simple or we think they’re, but they’re so important. They make the rest, like you said, they may set the vibe. 

Sarah Metcalfe: It was, yeah. And I was reminded about how important they were. Turn over to you Elisa to wrap up cause I think you have a perfect closing.

Yeah. Closing 

Elisa Tuijnder: question. Yeah. So we end all of our Happiness at Work podcast with asking our guests [00:32:00] about tangible practices. So I think, let me ask both of you. I’ll start with Jenny. What are some practical things? Our listeners can start implementing tomorrow with either their employees or for themselves that to lead to more happiness in their lives.

We’ve spoken about a number of things, but is there anything else that comes from your background perspective that springs to mind. 

Jenny Brockis: I think it’s really great to have three or four things that you have in your happiness toolbox that you prioritize and make sure that you engage with them in some way every single day.

So for me personally, it would be getting outside for a walk because I just love being in nature. I need to be in contact with the wind and the sun or whatever. The second thing is to spend some time with our dogs because I’m a real dog person and just being with them puts a smile on their face, My face, I don’t put a [00:33:00] smile on their face, them patting them, seeing them run around and having fun.

It’s about the relationships we have. My husband it’s about, doing something just calming. And I just love beautiful music. And of course I find that just spending time being and thinking makes me happy because I like to be and think cause I’m a bit of thinker. So that’s what I do. What about you, Sarah?

Sarah Metcalfe: Oh, I love all of that. I love all this stuff we’ve talked about. But I guess in that space, I would say What are your rhythms? And to your point, Jenny, sometimes when we’re in kind of crazy chaos and we’re too busy, it’s hard for us to then, that kind of executive function to decide what we have to do.

So having a list where I know I need to do something, but your list tells you what to do, so you don’t actually have to think, you can just [00:34:00] do it. It’s like that Shawn Anchor kind of 20 second rule, big fan of the 20 second rule. So I would say, What’s your more, what is your morning thing? What gets you energized? Are you low energy in the morning?

Are you high energy? What do you need to do? Do you need to go outside? Do you need to reflect? Do you need to meditate? Do you need to exercise? Whatever? And then at the end of the day, what’s your rhythm to end your day? So how do you either draw a line between work and home or commute or whatever?

But just before you do that, my favorite thing is a ta-da list. So we always have a to-do list. Yeah. If we don’t have something to do, we don’t have the job. There will always be things on our to-do list. It will never be over. Why should it be? But how rarely do we sit and we look at what did I do, making progress in our work and then reflecting and seeing how far we’ve come.

And I this idea that the journey of a thousand miles [00:35:00] begins with one step. But the journey of a thousand miles ends with one step. So it’s just recognizing when you’ve made that one step and and seeing where you’ve come from where you’re 

Elisa Tuijnder: going to. I love that you called it a TA-DA list.

That is , That’s 

Sarah Metcalfe: absolutely, I take my to-do list. I actually take my to-do list and I cross out the todo on top of the printed thing, and I write ta-da. 

Elisa Tuijnder: I, I still, I have so many to-do list, but I still every day sit down and make little paper one as well so I can have the satisfaction of going . Done. Yeah.

Great. Doesn’t feel like that when you click on, click on something as in it’s too fast. No, take the, 

Sarah Metcalfe: doesn’t it. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Really 

Sarah Metcalfe: doesn’t, rhythms and those rituals. There’s a physicality to that. Which plays into it for us. [00:36:00] Would you end by sharing with our listeners, what are some of your talk tips for them?

Elisa Tuijnder: I think. You said it there, right? Creating those we would almost say Creating what are they called? The things you do every day, like the the habits. That’s what? Ritual. Habit. Ritual habits, Yeah. . Yeah, I think, sorry that, that came from far away. Yeah. I, creating those and maintaining those is actually really important.

I’m somebody that is naturally quite chaotic and I feel at my best and my happiest when I know I’ve had, my morning routine, which includes a little bit of yoga and those kind of things. And if I let that go, I can see within the week that kind of, some of that calmness, clarity in a sense.

Also that happiness [00:37:00] just dissipates and I, So I think forming those habits is definitely important and like Jenny said, taking, making them your own as well. These 12 steps to happiness is that, is petting your dog. Make sure you do that every day. And. Put that into your daily routine to to spark yourself up.

As I heard someone say yesterday that we are, we’re like combustion engines and we need we are combustion engines, but we need instead of the nourishment that we need in the water and all of those kind of things, we also need these things that spark us. If petting your dog is sparking you do that.

If going for a run or going for a hike, do that. Is that going with your friends? Do that. Make sure you just make sure that you do the things that spark you and not just I love being a couch potato as well, but I do have to get out of it sometimes and , because I know that doesn’t spark me very much.

So yes creating [00:38:00] those habits and ensuring that the things that, that you do, that you love and that give you energy that they’re in. What 

Sarah Metcalfe: a beautiful way to end. Thank you so much for joining us today. Yeah, I loved that. And the thing that stood out for me today is just going back to that very beginning, individuals and interactions over process and tools.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, let’s keep that in mind. Thank you. You’ve can sing 

Sarah Metcalfe: in between every time. Every time. We’ll put all the links so people can reach you, Elisa, but what’s the best way someone can contact you if they’re interested to hear 

Elisa Tuijnder: more about you? So yeah, I would go either through the Management 3.0 website, which is, or gets straight onto me, which is, where you can find all these things.

And we are also doing a great conference. Solely about happiness happiness as the why in agile transformations [00:39:00] which is live in Berlin, if you’re in Germany or in there but also via your computer screen. So we’re attempting a hybrid conference which is very exciting, very nerve-wracking.

But yeah, absolutely. Join us for that. How about you, Sarah? Jenny, if we’re crossing over here, how do people get get to you? 

Jenny Brockis: The easiest way is probably through Thriving with Sarah and Jenny on our Facebook page and sign up to our podcast and then you can get hold 

Sarah Metcalfe: of us that way and LinkedIn and anywhere else.

Yeah. Yeah. , I think we’re also on YouTube and all sorts of other places, so yeah. , we’re everywhere. Everywhere. Thriving with Sarah and Jenny and you’ll just 

Elisa Tuijnder: go Thriving. Thriving with Sarah and Jenny. And we’re good. Yeah, we’re good. Perfect.

You’ve been listening to The Happiness At Work podcast by Management 3.0 [00:40:00] where we are getting serious about happiness. Be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast, and if you enjoy our shows, don’t be shy. Write us a review. Share the happiness with your colleagues, family or friends. Follow us on Twitter, Facebook, or LinkedIn under Management 3.0.

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