When we talk about a truly happy workplace, the image we often conjure is that of a startup. Ping pong tables, employee coffee bars, mid-day massages… And while perks like these may not be as ubiquitous as they once were in the heyday of the tech boom, startups have permanently changed the way we view work.
Today we explore life at a modern tech startup, and how companies and leaders are approaching employee happiness in a post-COVID world.
Anna Löw, VP of People at Giant Swarm, joins host Elisa Tuijnder to discuss her company’s unique approach to workplace culture and employee investment, which includes the deceptively simple precept: “Treat your employees like adults.”
Have you ever pondered about the following questions?
- How do we give people and their happiness the attention they deserve in our organizations and transformations?
- How do we enable change for people and not push change on people?
- How do we create the culture and environment we need for people to express themselves?
Of course you have! That’s why you listen to our podcast. But while podcasts are a one-way street, our Forward Summits are all about interecations.
Anna Löw will present a case study on their move to a 32 hours work week; the pitfalls and their successes.
So come and join the conversation, at our upcoming summit: HAPPINESS AS THE ‘WHY’ IN AGILE TRANSFORMATION, held in Berlin, Germany and online from 30 November – 2 December 2022,
You’ll get to follow-up with Anna but also hear from our kick-ass keynote speakers Sunny Grosso; Svenja Hofert; Debra Corey; and Fransisco Mahfuz. Take part in our practice sessions, case study sessions, open sessions and global networking, both in Berlin and online!
Go to our designated Forward Summit Website for more info and tickets.
Transcript
*Please note that the transcript has been automatically generated and proofread for mistakes. But remains in spoken English, and some syntax and grammar mistakes might remain.
Elisa Tuijnder: [00:00:00] Quite often when we talk about a truly happy workplace, the image we conjure in our minds is that of a startup. Ping Pong tables, employee coffee bars, and free snacks, maybe midday massages. And while perks like these may not be as ubiquitous as they once were in the heyday of the tech boom, startups have permanently changed the way we view work, the changes can be small. Like how employers now talk about workplace culture in ways they never did before. And the changes can be significant. Like how employers now offer coaching wellness and mental health services to employees. In addition to traditional benefits. Today, we explore life at a modern tech startup and how companies and leaders are approaching employee happiness in a post-COVID world.[00:01:00]
Before we dive in, you are listening to a limited series by the happiness at work podcast by Management 3.0 where we are getting serious about happiness.
We are currently in the run up to our Forward Flagship Summit. Which will be held from 30 November to 02 December live in Berlin and from your computer screens this year is all about “Happiness as the why in agile transformations”. In this limited series, we’ll be speaking to partners, conference speakers, and those with ultimate know out about happiness in agile transformations, we’ll be publishing regular in the run up to the Summit.
So make sure to subscribe, so you won’t miss a beat and do keep listening for a special promo code for our podcast enthusiasts, thinking about joining [00:02:00] our summit.
Our guest today is Anna Löw VP of people at Giant Swarm a tech company launched in 2014, that helps organizations develop products on cloud native architecture. Thanks so much for joining us, Anna,
Anna Löw: Thank you very much, happy to be here.
Elisa Tuijnder: Fantastic. So before we get into your work and your perspectives on a professional level, let’s start out with a more personal question.
Here on the podcast, you always do the same question for us, and that is what does happiness mean to you?
Anna Löw: Wow. That’s a masterpiece question. Right now at the beginning. To be honest. I do not know in terms of knowledge or I don’t have a perfect definition for me. It’s just, I feel it. And I feel it with my family, with friends, at places in situations on some days [00:03:00] it can be long and can be short.
And I just know, and I trust that the feeling I have is happiness.
Perfect.
Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. I hope you have those days more often than not. All right. So giant swarm began about eight years ago, not that long ago. And with a staff of seven and today you have dozens of employees working on multiple project teams. So what do you attribute to that organizational growth?
Anna Löw: Why the organization grows is happening. It’s super generic. We are building a product and we found people who buy the product and all the money we make out of it, we invest in people because this company basically owns nothing beside of, I think, 90 laptops. And yeah, all the money is invested in people.
Whether, if it’s in the people who are already there or the people that are supposed to join that the company is growing.
Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah that’s great to hear. So everything gets reinvested back into [00:04:00] existing employees or new employees. If I understand correctly.
Anna Löw: Exactly. And like I said, we are a profitable company, so we are not playing the fancy startup game and have 50 million on the bank account that we just need to spend.
So we work for the money we earn and then we spend and invest.
Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. Okay. So you didn’t have a big seed investment first and then , it’s all organic growth. That’s even more impressive, right? Yeah. So yeah, your CEO Henning ,Länge specifically mentions happy employees in his vision for the company as one of the first team members to join giant swarm.
Have you seen that as a central focus for the company from the beginning is really wanna know. But it’s happy employees and that having as a vision, because not a lot of people do have that. And that’s also why we have you on the podcast to learn more about that.
Yes. Henning is our CEO and yeah, he included this in the vision.
Anna Löw: And I personally, always not the biggest fan of the word happiness in [00:05:00] vision, but he 100% meant the right thing we have one fundamental rule at Giant Swarm, which is people, product, profits. So people is always first. We always think when we think about the impact, whatever action has, we think about people first, then about the product and then about the profits.
And I was super personal, but you mentioned it. I was part of the kickoff team eight years ago, and the fact that I was there. Because spoiler, I did not do it for free to take care of people, to think about how to build an organization, how to get the right people on board that chose how important that is, because yeah, it was also a kind of an investment to pay my salary.
Elisa Tuijnder: That’s really interesting. So he started out saying people first and then the product, and that’s how he set out his business plan. And that’s how he set out this whole idea. How did that permeate in that launch? How did that [00:06:00] permeate in those initial stages? How did he put people first before actually anything else was there.
Anna Löw: Yeah. So to mention it’s three founders in total Henning is the CEO and they all have the same thoughts around these topics. And yeah. The company started even without knowing what the company will do exactly. Obviously the direction that it’s gonna be a tech company that was relatively clear, but the kickoff team was already there and I’m not a tech person at all. I understand basic concepts, but that’s definitely not my profession. And now with there since the very first day to think of how do we want to treat each other, how do we want set up the company? How do we want communicate? And this is obviously the goal is to have happy people at workspace.
Wow.
Elisa Tuijnder: So they basically created that, that narrative already before they actually went and they created those structures and that is impressive. Very impressive. So let’s dive a little bit deeper into that. [00:07:00] So what aspects of the workplace, or what aspects of the works at Giant Swarm apart? So you’ve written about some aspects like transparent salaries and family friendliness.
So could you expand on those for our listeners and the approaches you think contribute to employee happiness and fulfillment at Giants Swarm, but maybe things can be replicated for our listeners at their organizations as well.
Anna Löw: Yeah. Let’s make it a bit more structural because the stuff you mentioned, this is an outcome of a mindset, obviously.
Yeah. And there is one sentence I repeat over and over again, and it sounds a bit strange, but. We decide that people who work at Giants Swarm are adults and adults know best for them what to do. I said, it sounds very obvious, but I guess many of the listeners and you and I, at least in students helping out jobs, we have experienced the difference that we have been treated from our bosses definitely [00:08:00] not like an adult. And this is one fundamental basement of how we create the structure. And the second fundamental basement, don’t have very well shaped well used that are on beautiful postcards or hang on walls. But we operate as helping well used operating values with trust and transparency. That is something we decided in the very beginning, we want to be a transparent company.
And we also decided that we will trust people. This is not an active decision. Again, this is the mindset and all initiatives regarding building the organizational structure of the company need somehow to pay off to these two values. And that’s why having transparency as an example, all information at Giants Swarm is transparent.
As long as we do not have to protect people, then obviously there are boundaries. Why are we doing that? [00:09:00] It’s because adult people and we want people to do good decisions, but to make good decisions, you need information. And unfortunately, I cannot know which information you need to make a good decision.
Why set limits? On the other hand, there is a lot of information floating around in a company with now all around 90 people. I have to trust my colleagues that they pick the right information because no one would blame me if I hang around eight hours a day in whatever death channel. But unfortunately it does not solve any of my problems.
That’s why I’m just not there and taking into account, everyone is an adult at that company and trust and transparency definitely need to be fulfilled. Then organizational stuff comes out. So that’s why our salaries are transparent and the initial salaries are calculated through a formula and the salaries [00:10:00] increases like the annual ones, there we just changed to a model that people decide for themselves what they want to earn. Because that’s again, self responsibility and, self-organization and therefore we have yeah. Billions of different aspects, but they all have to pay off to these three elements.
Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, that’s
really interesting. Like very close to our principles at management 3.0 as well.
Yeah. So I’m curious about how you, so you said all of the information is transparent. And then my brain goes into, how do you do that in practice? How is that? Is that a really big minternal comms mechanism? Because you said. It’s easy to do that. If there’s nine of you or 10 of you, but now that you’re 90 or, and growing those things become more convoluted and more complicated.
So I really be intrigued to know a little bit more about how you make that transparent
Anna Löw: First of all, there is different ways of communication. And we have very strict slack rules, for [00:11:00] example, what have to be post where, and there’s billions of channels and not in, because I’m not interested in what happening there, but I could, it’s just, we don’t want to limit it.
And are people writing direct messages to themselves? Yes, this is happening. Because it’s a human thing and this is okay. But we evaluate if the amount of direct messages would go up to, let’s say 80%, then we definitely have a problem in the company. Another part of transparency is we record basically all meeting that people who are not there can watch them again.
If it’s something that is connected to very personal stuff, then obviously we don’t do that because protecting people, we have the people first thing. Every meeting is free. You can join, whichever meeting is, you can just go in. There’s a few meetings where it might make sense to knock on the door, but you would do that anyhow.
And we also train people and [00:12:00] understand financials because sometimes if all information is open, that is more intransparent then you would just provide a certain amount of information because you have to understand the information and yeah, everyone knows what is on our bank account. But we train people to understand also like cash flow, P&Ls.
Not everyone learned it in school and this is perfectly fine.
Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah I really like that approach because, I love getting thrown numbers at, but sometimes I don’t understand what that or what that means for the target or anything like that. So it’s great that you’re giving that aid as well.
And then that training to, for people to understand. What does that lead to in decision making processes? So I’m assuming you are you in a flat hierarchy than at Giant Swarm? Mostly. And, and how does that translate in the decision making process? All this transparency.
Anna Löw: Important, [00:13:00] different decision making processes for different decisions. We’re definitely not a hundred percent democratic company because basically this is barely existing. We have defined certain areas and we decide how the decision is made there sometimes. It’s that you have to consult someone, the play decision card games and you’ll come up with solutions before – Delegation Poker.
You come up with solutions we found. And, one thing we make very clear always is what do we want to communicate. There is decisions, which is a decision. And then we communicate that this was a decision. There is also things which is a suggestion. And then we communicate that this is a suggestion. And then there is different ways how to provide feedback different ways in the technical aspect or in other aspects.
And then sometimes we propose something. [00:14:00] Yeah. We have a topic and we need to talk about, and everyone is welcome to join. And then we set up meetings, but we are very strict in making everyone clear what needs to be decided. And sometimes things are decided if the founders would close the company, then obviously they could decide this, and I don’t have any voting mechanism in it, but that’s quite normal and widely accepted.
And in terms of what kind of hierarchy or leadership model we have we truly believe in lateral leadership. The divided elements of leadership into certain roles are even better into certain and the single boss itself does not exist. We have it in terms of every individual has one person who has the single boss function.
But this person does not give you tasks, feedback, decide your salary or is responsible for your [00:15:00] development. It’s just the final point of escalation. If all elements that we have created in our company’s structure fail, then this person is forced to help you. No matter what, basically no one of us ever operates under that.
With that task, but we have it because it provides security, especially for people who join you and who need to get familiar with our leadership concept.
Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. Yeah. You touched on that feedback element just now. And so I wondered how that works for you guys then is that a group responsibility or is that also in those kind of areas that you just described included.
Anna Löw: Obviously there’s billion elements of feedback. And we obviously we don’t do an annual performance review where your boss prepares five minute in advance and you are not able to listen, even if it’s very cool, because you want to, would like to ask that you would get a 20% payback. Obviously we don’t do [00:16:00] that.
Every team does a retro. That is a very important feedback element. There’s different ways of written feedback especially more on the technical world, the code reviews. And yeah, there is several more elements. And then based on the individual, we have also a feedback cycle, which leads into the self salary process in the end, because obviously you should use the feedback.
And there we have elements. One important element, which is very often forgotten is self reflection, provide feedback, you yourself, you knows things very good. So we support our colleagues in doing that part. And then there’s one element that you, as an employee decide and request expert feedback from someone, but you decide the topic and you decide who will be the expert providing you this feedback.
And then we [00:17:00] do inter team feedback workshops which are professionally facilitated where everyone provides feedback within the team. And then there is a fourth element that you request feedback from two people, one person needs to be in your team and the other one outside your team.
And you can shape in the topic, but obviously we have tons of material that also the feedback giver feels comfortable.
Yeah, that’s
Elisa Tuijnder: fantastic. That’s great to hear. And I can imagine that this way of working creates a lot of psychological safety. I know psychological safety is a bit of a buzzword at the moment, but yeah.
Asking for I really like the expert feedback. That’s a really, that’s, it’s a really interesting concept. It’s almost like a buddy system, but then in a little bit, a step further asking for actual feedback and that’s really interesting. So all employment sectors have been impacted by the pandemic and this global shift we’ve seen [00:18:00] towards remote work and in the tech industry, that was no different.
And actually they might have had it a little bit easier at times. So how did Giant Swarm adjust to these changes in the last couple of years? And has it impacted the company’s focus on employee happiness? How was it before, did you all have these great kumbaya moments where you all stood together and did a standup and has that gone a little bit.
Pick your brain a little bit about that side.
Anna Löw: Yeah. First of all, and this is very important to mention we are remote since the very beginning. So we decided to be remote. I think after six months we operated. So from that point of view the pandemic did exactly nothing to us because, I personally, I would have become very rich if I would have been able to answer all the requests from colleagues or people.
I know how do we do that? But yeah, we have obviously, but, and [00:19:00] this was a great advantage for us because I still can. Was a very big yes. About the impact. The good thing is we had time to think, because we didn’t have to think of, is there any VPN client, do our colleagues have laptops? But wehad the impact on people, this is, no doubt.
And it was very different. You had parents with billions of toddlers running around at home, no childcare. You had very introverted people who definitely really suffer from feeling very lonely. And even though we were all in the difficult position, now, one of us had like existential fears or very close relatives dying. We realized, yeah, it makes things to people and we put a lot more thoughts into mental health approaches. We established, we did it a bit before, like an international employee has assistant program [00:20:00] where certain forms of coaching and also emergency coaching is included. We readjusted our productivity calculations.
We said 80% max, and we encouraged everyone to do what is possible. Don’t over pace it. We understood in the very beginning, people were relatively happy to work because the work didn’t change because we are remote. We had these communication structures, but, people have chosen to work remotely, but not chosen to live remotely.
And have their kids with them.
Not being able to send them to the park, yes.
And even now we do not stop thinking about that. Because I truly believe that these year of pandemic has shifted, basically everyone a bit more towards burnout. This does not mean everyone needs to have a burnout or burn out [00:21:00] diagnosis.
Definitely not, but the shift has happened and that’s why we next week we have a mental health day at our company prepared by colleagues who have definitely very different views on the topic and will bring different insight. And we also plan talk autumn, like after summer break to shift to 32 hours a week.
So the four day work week for everyone will be possible. There’s no cuts because we believe that trend will come. And it’s good to give people time to cure from the last two years. It’s not because we are super nice, but because we believe that our employees and my colleagues, and me and myself, that we will work better.
Elisa Tuijnder: Have you ever wondered about one of the following questions? How do we give people and their [00:22:00] happiness, the attention they deserve in our organizations and transformations? How do we enable change for people and not push change on people? How do we create the culture and environment we need for people to express themselves?
Of course you have! That’s why you listen to our podcast, but while podcasts are a one way street, our summits are all about interactions. So why don’t you come and join the conversation with our kick ass keynote speakers, Sunny Grosso, Svenja Hofert, Debra Corey, and Francisco Mahfuz. Take part in our practice sessions, case study sessions, open sessions and global networking, both in Berlin and online,go to fwd-summit.com.
That is fwd-summit.com for more info and [00:23:00] tickets. And as a podcast listener use the code FORWARDPOD at checkout. That is FORWARDPOD. To let us know you are a friend of the pod and receive some special Martie the management monster goodies.
That’s so interesting. I really wanna have you back after you’ve done it for a few months. So how did you, so we’ve heard a lot about the four day word week. So how did that go within the company? Somebody raised that and said look, we’ve all. And we are probably even more productive on those four days than that.
We are in those other days. So how, I’d love to hear a little bit more about that decision and if there was any pushback.
Anna Löw: The story was as follows last year in September. We, the entire company met in Croatia. For a week we decided that we want to do it. And we did, we rented a small island that everything was [00:24:00] outside and covid testing.
So we said, yeah, we hadn’t seen each other for a long time. We now need to do it. And then we run an open space and there I pitched the session four day work week. And many people joined basically. No one says no. To these contents, which is highly understandable. And it was very nice because after the session the colleague said, oh great.
So many people liked it. So we do it next week. And I was like goal is not to kill the company. There is different stakeholders and maybe let’s do baby steps and then there was certain forms of priority shift. So decision was made three weeks ago and now we very carefully conduct a rollout plan goal is to be ready in September.
But if the transition is smoother and it takes four weeks longer, I really do not care. And we, yeah, there is certain administration aspects. Our company [00:25:00] needs to ensure a 24/7 support kind of system. And, but we will make that possible I’m hundred percent sure, but there will be boundaries, but with remote it’s the same.
We are fully remote. Yes. But there is boundaries. If you don’t have a proper internet connection, then no, it’s just there’s boundaries. And also timewise, we had a few restrictions. And with that four day work week, or we definitely will go for 32 hours. That one day off is possible, but it’s also possible to work shorter to work shorter hours because definitely some people will prefer that because their entire social life is not created to have that four day work week.
Now time will change and we will start with the pet team and. Coming back to the boundaries. If there’s a team with five people and team member one decides [00:26:00] Monday off the next Tuesday, Wednesday and so on. Yeah. Needs a negotiation process because without a planning, no team, and obviously these things will happen, but yeah, we will go baby steps and I hope that I will be done in autumn.
So basically people also have the opportunity to say I’m only working every day from eight to one or at a doing calculate. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. 32 hours. Not I’m gonna work Tuesday to Friday or anything like that.
Yeah. And if shit hits the fan, I really trust my colleagues said yes, there might be a week where it’s not 32 hours.
Fine.
Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. Yeah. I think again, that comes back to the principles that you had, the trust there, there is times that I. That I work double the amount and the hours that I have allotted. And there’s other times where I might just not make it. But that trust of trusting your colleagues to make, not make it up, yeah.
Have that [00:27:00] balance out. That’s absolutely super interesting. I’m really intrigued to see how the experiment is going. And did you have any so cause obviously you said in the beginning that you didn’t have any investors, but you do have other stakeholders. Was there any pushback from them or any major concerns
there?
Anna Löw: We had investors in the very beginning, just to be correct in here which are obviously still there, but it’s the company is mainly owned by. And founders especially. To be honest, we haven’t communicated that because it won’t be something like the entire company is closed on Friday. This is obviously not gonna happen.
And we wouldn’t be able, but obviously will flank the transition. And I think that yeah, other stakeholders will be also very interested in our shared knowledge and profiting there because just killing the hours, won’t make the company better. So we flank [00:28:00] it with certain working groups regarding getting better in essence communication, but also getting better in certain communication, simple things.
If a meeting does not have an agenda, then kill the meeting. And we definitely will work on these things that our productivity will remain safe or similar. And if we have to hire a few additional people to cover something fine, but we are hundred percent convinced already now that we will not face a 20% productivity loss.
That’s very unlikely and all theory faces to this thing.
Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, no, it’d be great to see. But yes, I don’t. I think, , my gut feeling says it’ll the same. It might even go up because yeah because we, I love this in England, people used to say your desk meat , and that’s, there’s, you’re there for eight hours, only four of them were something are actually productive and the rest of your desk meat, which is a horrible sentence, but it’s so [00:29:00] true.
Anna Löw: It’s so true. But we’ll have to be more honest to ourselves. So we really have to ask ourselves what is work like I’m going for a walk and I have an eye on slack. Maybe that is not work, maybe it’s, but that’s something that needs to be defined and I’m hundred percent sure that there will be friction in the beginning because you have.
Less hours if you shift the mental model because these 40 hours a week thing is in our heads, no one calculates hours at our company, but it’s so strict in our heads. And yeah, we will put a lot of thoughts into how to prepare people for that friction. Many am now dealing with stereotype, but many women who return back on an 80% job after maternity leave, they experienced it very well.
But obviously even entire company has that feeling. You can do something about it and you can make aware, but it will be friction in the beginning. [00:30:00] I’m hundred percent convinced. Not gonna go hundred procent smoothly, but fine. Of course not.
Elisa Tuijnder: No. And any big shifts always require some adjustment periods.
Yeah. I really liked also what you just said there, like the, and it’s something I’ve actually really thought about at times The time you’re actually at a restaurant and you’re slacking people or I’m laying in bed and I’m just clearing a few couple of emails. Is that work time?
It , we’re so used to being on all the time that actually are really limited to those 32 hours. And should we be more mindful of that? Is there anything in the company that you guys have implemented there to make sure that yeah, people that’s one of the things we talked about, the burnout in the beginning, People are just on all the time.
And we also have that urge that especially since slack and like the start of emails, but since slack and teams and those kind of things, we constantly feel like, okay, it’s DM it’s or it’s fast messaging. It’s instant messaging. Do we feel like also the need to instant message [00:31:00] back? So is there anything you’ve done in that respect that you
wanna share.
Yeah. Yeah,
Anna Löw: it has several elements. Obviously. One is, like I said, we have very relatively strict communication rules. So sometimes we have defined time when you are supposed to answer. Or which channel are you supposed to read when you are, have a normal working day? We especially the more junior the people are, the more complicated it is for them because basically all the time something is happening at the company, because a of the time zones, and B we have flexible hours, people can work whenever they want.
But we have in each and every team, which is normally about seven to eight people. We have a dedicated role. It’s a bit similar to a scrum master, but definitely not a hundred percent who is taking care of people who encourage people to take holidays. [00:32:00] We defined a minimum amount because we do not count vacation days, but we didn’t want to end that story. Many people wrote about it up in people not taking holidays. So yeah, we take care that people are also able to deal with the fact that maybe a colleague wants to write something at 11 in the evening because he’s off the next morning, but this should also be possible. And we have people who we have very different kind of notification management in that company, all kind of people.
There’s people who can ignore everything. And there’s people who have a reaction within one second, but it’s about individuals and that certain things are possible. We have some agreements. We said, okay, a team needs to be able to find a slot for stand-up, great perspectives, that should be possible. And you need to, that everyone is online.
So yeah. Who are east coast people? This might be an early morning.
Elisa Tuijnder: [00:33:00] Yeah, we have the same in our team. I like there that you have somebody as well, who’s like czar in in the health czar almost Hey, have you taken any holiday? Have you taken just like accountability, because I fall prey to that myself as well as okay, I’ll take holiday whenever all of this is done, but then a new cycle of something starts.
And if you don’t actually take the time to switch off every now and again. Yeah. You just keep running. So I really I like that concept as well. So here on the podcast, we are big fans of tangible practices. You’ve given us loads already. But things let’s recap on things that our listeners can potentially start implementing tomorrow.
I know many of the practices like we’ve discussed are maybe unique to Giant Swarm, but actually maybe also not that unique, they can actually be transported to other organizations. But yeah, let’s try and get some practical, small recap of some practical things that maybe people can start doing tomorrow without having a complete organizational overhaul or [00:34:00] culture change.
Anna Löw: Yeah. This is definitely not concrete, but I will think about something concrete, but me operating in the tech industry there’s lack of talent. Everywhere. And I always said that this is one of the biggest advantages of my job because an employer cannot be an asshole because otherwise not one else will work for you.
But to make it concrete that costs nothing. And the effect is. I doubted it in the beginning, but I definitely were convinced implement something like an awesome box, a kudos card tomorrow. The invest is incredibly low and people might feel a bit, should I really do that? Is there a political game around that?
But the effect is so amazing. We have that as a dedicated slack channel and it’s awesome. It’s called awesome box and it’s make you smile. Three times a day, and this is [00:35:00] something really good implement that tomorrow.
Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. Those are really simple tools to yeah. To create a lot more employee happiness and yeah.
Fantastic. All right. Thank you, Anna. Thank you so much for joining us. This is a very interesting conversation and I really hope to have you back at some point to talk about how. You know how the transition went and I’m sure our listeners will be very intrigued by that as well. So thank you so much again and good luck with everything.
Anna Löw: Thank you. Thank you very much. It was great being here. Goodbye.
Elisa Tuijnder: You’ve been listening to the happiness at work podcast by Management 3.0 where we are getting serious about happiness. Be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. And if you enjoy our shows, don’t be shy, write us a review, share the happiness with your colleagues, family, your friends. Follow us on Twitter, Facebook or LinkedIn under [00:36:00] Management 3.0.
