Thriving on Change

Hands-on Management 3.0 leadership workshops focus on tangible practices to help managers, team leaders, middle management, and C-level executives increase employee engagement and foster transformational change within their organizations. Start Your Leadership Journey Today!

Romain Olives

Change is inevitable. Some businesses prepare for it, some adapt to it, and others embrace it.

Today we speak with Romain Olives, a renowned coach, thought leader, Management 3.0 facilitator, and CEO who has spent his career helping leaders understand the value of change, and build companies that are capable of thriving under any conditions.

Key Points

  • Embracing Agile Leadership: Romain discusses the essence of agile leadership beyond methodologies, focusing on cultivating an agile mindset to navigate the complexities of today’s fast-paced world, emphasizing the importance of adaptability and innovation in leadership.
  • Human-Centric Approach: Highlighting the paramount importance of placing humans at the center of organizational strategies, Romain advocates for a leadership style that prioritizes transparency, collaboration, and the well-being of employees, thereby enhancing organizational performance and resilience.
  • Cultural Transformation Challenge: Addressing the significant challenge of shifting organizational culture towards more agile and lean practices, emphasizing the need for comprehensive training and mindset change across all levels of the organization to successfully navigate this transition.
  • Practical Tools for Improvement: Offering practical advice for fostering better communication and feedback within teams, Romain suggests adopting non-violent communication and Management 3.0 tools like the Feedback Wrap to improve dialogue, collaboration, and ultimately, happiness at work.

Learn more about Romain and his company Ihmisen here. Connect with Romain on LinkedIn here


Happiness means different things to each of us. After doing extensive research, Management 3.0 founder Jurgen Appelo discovered a common thread: Happiness is something we create. It is not something to achieve. It is a path you choose, not a destination to arrive at.

So many of us spend our lives in pursuit of happiness. Instead of searching for it, we need to find ways to live it, embrace it, and implement it into our daily lives. That’s why we created the 12 Steps to Happiness at Management 3.0.

You can find more information and even download a free poster of the 12 steps here.


*Please note that the transcript has been automatically generated and proofread for mistakes. But remains in spoken English, and some syntax and grammar mistakes might remain.

Elisa Tuijnder: [00:00:00] Change is inevitable. Some businesses prepare for it, some simply adapt to it, while others embrace it. Today we speak with a renowned facilitator, coach and CEO who has spent his career helping leaders understand the value of change and building companies capable of thriving under any conditions.[00:00:30]

Before we dive in, you are listening to the Happiness at Work podcast by Management 3point0. Where we are getting serious about happiness.

I’m your host, Elisa Tuijnder, Happiness Enthusiast and Management 3point0 team member. In this podcast, we share insights from industry experts, influencers, and thought leaders about what it [00:01:00] takes to be happy, motivated, and productive at work, so that loving your job becomes the norm and not the exception.

We will be publishing every fortnight on Friday, so be sure to tune in and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, guess what? Today is Romain Olives, a renowned coach, thought leader, management 3point0 facilitator, and CEO of [00:01:30] Ibisen. Thank you so much for joining us today, Romain.

Romain Olives: Thank you, Elisa. I’m happy to be there.

Elisa Tuijnder: Great. So, hey, I’m super excited to talk about your work and your views on management and change management.

But before we jump in, we always start with the same question and that is, what does happiness mean to you? And you might have already answered this once before because you have been on the podcast once before. And so it’d be fun to look back if it’s changed.

Romain Olives: Yeah, absolutely. And the fun fact is I didn’t remember what I said a [00:02:00] few years ago.

So it will be a new answer, I will say. So I still love the question, by the way. What does happiness mean to me? I think in a nutshell is to say that you are happy to wake up in the morning and you absolutely want to be in the morning when you are at the evening, you know. So based on that I will say that mainly happiness for me is to have a job that you like, you have [00:02:30] friends that you can rely on and so on, and it’s not easy every day but you can cultivate and improve everything.

And little by little, you join the happiness. So that’s happiness.

Elisa Tuijnder: Absolutely. Uh, one day I’ll go back cause I’m working on, on something. this question with all of the, all of the people who’ve answered it. So one day I’ll, uh, I’ll, I’ll be able to compare. So you focus a lot on, on agile leadership and it’s one of the buzzwords that we use at Management 3.

0 as well, but [00:03:00] on the podcast, we haven’t actually. kind of explained very often what Agile leadership actually means and what it means in today’s business climate. So for you to question what, what is Agile leadership? And it can also, I mean, it’s different for a lot of people sometimes as well, but what do you think it really entails?

Romain Olives: Yeah, absolutely. I agree with you. Um, it’s a buzzword. That’s true. But, um, the first thing I think when I say Agile, It’s about mindsets, not about like the framework we heard, like Scrum, [00:03:30] Safe, and other. Um, so when we apply agile mindset to the leadership is also to, um, say that We, we see that today our world is moving too fast.

Everything goes faster and faster. We talked about, um, the, the complexity of the world, and it’s not for nothing. So being agile and being an agile leader, for example, is to embrace all this complexity and doing things differently than the traditional approach. [00:04:00] This will be my definition.

Elisa Tuijnder: Absolutely. It’s a good one, because I know also at the moment you see a lot in, you know, sometimes at least in my, in my LinkedIn, you see a lot, Oh, Agile is dead.

And, and all of these kinds of things. And for me, like, yeah, maybe the frameworks are dying down a bit, or maybe the complexity of the frameworks are dying down, but the mindset isn’t dead. The, the mindset is just becoming more. Business as usual. Is that, is that how you, how you feel as well? And there’s still a lot of work to be done, but, you know.

Romain Olives: Yeah, for sure. [00:04:30] There is a lot of work to be done still. Um, Agile is dead. Well, I cannot agree with that. I can’t agree. Uh, well, it’s not because, uh, I’m promoting Agile. It’s just because I think, um, Agile. Again, before, uh, before being frameworks and perhaps, as you said, some of the frameworks are at the end of their life and that’s normal.

Uh, however, the agile mindset is something still very new for a lot of people. Um, not [00:05:00] a lot of people, um, in the world understand what, uh, What being agile means, basically. So I think we still have a few things to do in the future and, um, agility, uh, and, and even lean, lean agile mindset, I will say brings a lot of value within our world.

Um, but for that, we have to embrace different spirits within the organization. And I’m pretty sure that, uh, this will help a lot in the future. [00:05:30] To be more resilient, to be even more performant and so on.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. Is that really at the heart of Agile? Like, or is that the major benefits, this, this resilience that you’re building?

You already said the world is changing a lot faster and faster. Is it the fact that you’re able to be more resilient, uh, today or is it, and, and is it also kind of, you know, that adaptability or are there other benefits that also come with it? with being agile.

Romain Olives: Yeah, I think there is one other [00:06:00] huge benefit for me.

Um, Agile is also to promote transparency and put the human at the very heart of everything, which is for me the most important thing. So I will even say that this is the first benefit of Agile. You put the human at the very heart of your system and you do everything with the human in mind. Um, so yes, I guess this is the biggest one, and once you have done that, then you will go to a better performance, a better resilience, and a lot [00:06:30] of other stuff like that.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. Do you have a good example of what that looks in, in practice as what like an older structure might look like and what a newer structure might look like, where this, you, where the people are at the center of it?

Romain Olives: Yeah. Um, I can share something probably, um, so, so perhaps it’s, it’s an extreme, okay, between the traditional word.

Yeah, but those are good. Yeah.

Elisa Tuijnder: Those are good. Yeah. Yeah.

Romain Olives: Yeah, so before, um, uh, like I will say [00:07:00] a few years ago, I will say, um, like manager or leader within an organization should be the guy or the girl who has the solution. I mean, you have a trouble, you go to see your manager and as an expert, he will provide you the right solution because he’s or he is, uh, the guy or the girl.

Um, being agile is quite different because, uh, you will first, uh, accept that as a leader or as a manager, you don’t. Everything and you don’t have the solution to everything too. [00:07:30] So based on that, being an agile leader is also to have, um, the ability to facilitate a group of people or an individual to ask a lot of questions.

You know, there’s this group of this individual can find its own solution. And you accept that those people that could be your employee, for example, have more capabilities than you to find the right solution. And your role now is not to provide the solution, it’s more to facilitate the [00:08:00] group to help them to think about a problem and try them to, um, yeah, to find out what is the right solution to apply.

So, um, yeah, it’s the main difference between the two.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, and it’s very striking. And they were, like we said, there is still a lot of work to be done. There are a lot of people who don’t actually know how this works in practice. So say someone comes to, to EMSN tomorrow and says, we are a very [00:08:30] traditional waterfall structure company.

Um, but we can see that the outside world is becoming so good. Everything goes so fast and we, we need all of these things that all these gurus are talking about, or have been talking about, like, how do you start this in practice, what’s the first thing you kind of. Yeah. What do you, what do you start doing with them?

How do you start working in broad lines?

Romain Olives: Yeah. In a perfect world, I will say the first good step to have is to be trained, but not only, um, I [00:09:00] will say the, the teams also the manager and the top executive manager too. So you train your organization basically to move from a culture to another, because it’s all about and with the training, even if it’s not a long training, you will start to Talked about real deep subjects like the values of the enterprise, uh, how the manager delegates the thing, how people are motivated and so on.

And there is a real cultural shifts between [00:09:30] traditional and the agile world. So I think it’s the first step, the real good one first step.

Elisa Tuijnder: And that’s, for example, a Management 3point0 training that is very much focused on mindset and culture, not so much about frameworks or whatever.

Romain Olives: Absolutely. She’s a glassy cup and that’s why I like so much to, to, to give, uh, this Management 3point0 training because, um, There is deep question that you can discuss [00:10:00] with executive and employees, I will say.

And at the end, they still have a few tools that they can implement the day after the training and start this shift to a new culture. So that’s quite cool.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I was wondering, cause obviously you’ve been a longstanding Management 3point0 facilitator, what’s the thing that’s always That you’re happy to see after you’ve done a training.

What are the things that you always tend to see after this group of individuals all of a sudden gets in contact with Management 3point0? And what do you [00:10:30] like as a facilitator as well? The reason why you, why you’re still using this after so long?

Romain Olives: Um, the reason I’m still using it is, uh, first of all, because we are constantly improving the practices, the tools.

So this is the first thing. And then, because when I, um, when I do a training or even when I do some, some coaching or consulting with, with an individual, um, I’m happy when I see I will say two kind of reactions. The [00:11:00] first one is the person that are so happy with a tool and it has just solved a problem that he currently has.

This is the first kind of reaction I like so much. And the second reaction I like it’s when you know that you have asked a question where you have deep conversation to have. Um, and for example, I remember one day where, um, I talked about delegation with, um, an executive board and it was so [00:11:30] interesting to ask them how they delegate and, uh, and, and to raise the awareness that a true delegation It doesn’t need any confirmation from the manager at the end.

And here you can see in their eye that they are just thinking about what you are saying and so on. And we get something in their head.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. These eureka moments, right? Or this aha. We can see the, the pins drop. [00:12:00]

Romain Olives: Absolutely.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And like you said, you know, the continuous improvement of the practices and, and adopting of the practices.

And I think what’s so beautiful with a lot of the things that we do or bring to people is that they’re very simple and very easily implemented. They don’t need a lot of buy in and there are really cool tools that can be like a Lego serious play or whatever. There’s really cool things, but there are.

Massive things for us, a lot of the things that we bring are often [00:12:30] very simple practices that we can kind of use on a Monday afternoon, you know, or like something like that, like, Hey, let’s all sit together and let’s work with this. Um, and the, the, the beauty is in their simplicity, I think, um, often.

Romain Olives: For sure.

I fully agree with that.

Elisa Tuijnder: Hey, you also work a lot around lean, lean change and, and what does that adjective lean add to the, to the agile bit? Well, what is that? What is that exactly?

Romain Olives: Well, we, [00:13:00] we regularly say lean agile mindsets, which is quite close, uh, I think on my point of view. Um, first of all, the lean or lean management are generally known, uh, for chasing the waste, you know, but it’s more, more than that.

Um, the lean as for the agile as, uh, uh, first, um, observation that you have to take into account the human into your system. And I think the lean approach will also raise something [00:13:30] like we are looking for a win win approach. for the employees and for the organization. So basically, you do something great for the employee in order to have motivated and engaged employee so that they can benefit to the organization.

So that’s why I’m talking about win win approach, basically. And it’s true at every level of the organization. So this is how Lean completes, uh, for me, um, agility. So Lean Agile Mindsets. And we [00:14:00] can also talk about Lean Agile Leader instead of just Agile Leader.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. Can you make it a little bit more, more tangible, more practical, like give an example or something that, so that it becomes a little bit more real than just a, a term, you

Romain Olives: know what I mean?

No problem. Um, well, something that could be. A lean fact or a lean, a lean metaphor, I will say, within an organization, um, let’s imagine that you are in a huge organization, all right? Um, you have some travel [00:14:30] expenses to do and there you have only like 10 or 20 euros to, to be refunded. You go through a process that will take you like two or three hours.

Okay, too much time wasted for your own energy, but also for the organization. The lean thinking is to target this waste and to say, okay, we will improve the ecosystem so that this employee doesn’t take like three hours to do a simple, uh, simple travel expense. And in the [00:15:00] same time, as he will take like just 10 minutes in the future, he will win.

two hours and even more to do a real work that benefit to the organization. So it’s a simple, uh, it’s a simple example, but it’s so true.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, yeah, it is. I’ve worked in very large bureaucratic organizations where I thought, man, we’re spending way more on, on our finance department and on all these processes.

Cause each, like every time I’m doing two hours, two hours there being [00:15:30] me. And the system that everybody pays and then it goes through four people at finance to approve, like you said, a bus ticket or a train ticket or something like that. Yeah. And that is very interesting. It also made me think of all the studies that are being done at the moment around, you know, universal basic income and these kinds of things that they could massively be funded or almost completely entirely be funded with all of the bureaucracy that we’re taking away and all of the paperwork and, [00:16:00] and, and, yeah.

It is insane, and some countries are a bit better at it than others. I’m going to be in Germany, where, where it’s, where it’s still insane, the bureaucracy that I think, and just the amount of paperwork, everything has to go on paper.

Romain Olives: It’s what we have currently, and that’s why it’s important to go in the Lineage L mindset.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, exactly. I think there’s a lot of different, um, avenues that we could go through in all our lives. And [00:16:30] obviously there’s a lot of history around this, and that’s why it’s harder to, to change things, um, in, in bigger corporations with a long standing history often as well, than starting off with this mindset.

Romain Olives: Absolutely.

Elisa Tuijnder: What leads to a happy life? What are the various ways to be happy? Happiness means different things to each of us. Yet after doing [00:17:00] extensive research, Management 3point0 founder Juergen Appelow discovered the common thread. Happiness is something we create. It is not something to achieve. It is a path you choose, not a destination to arrive at.

So many of us spend our times in pursuit of happiness. Yet instead of searching for it We need to find ways to live it, embrace it, and implement it into our daily lives. We created the 12 Steps to [00:17:30] Happiness at Management 3point0. You can find more information and even download a free poster of the 12 Steps at management3o.


We’re called, obviously, Happiness at Work on this podcast. So how can we think about how that contributes more to happiness in the workplace, but can we make that also a little bit more tangible? How is this leanness? How is this agility really contributing to that [00:18:00] happiness in the workplace?

Romain Olives: Um, well, when you are in the Lineage L organization, I will say you regularly heard about, um, self organized team, you know?

Um, I think it’s a real benefit for everyone, because Uh, at this time you have like a manager that can focus to other activities than saying to people what to do. So they can, for example, develop the organization. They can just create links with other departments and so [00:18:30] on. And in the same time, you have employees that are fully responsible of what they are doing.

Like, uh, A developer will take some assumption, will take some, um, some idea of his own to develop the right software and so on. And it will be the same thing for every, uh, company. I mean, I’m talking about IT industry, but it’s the same thing in every industry. If you have people that are responsible, uh, accountable of what they are doing at every level of the organization, I think, [00:19:00] um, this will bring a little bit more happiness.

Plus, if you work on the motivation of everyone, if you work on the values of the company and what the company brings to the world, well, little by little, you will just create an organization of happiness. And, and I think this is a way to create more happiness within the organization. And again, it, it, you will just, a win win situation with employees, [00:19:30] with a good happiness at work and an organization that benefits from it directly because people are happy to be there, simply.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, absolutely. You said in the beginning that, uh, you know, the, the human aspect is for you, the most important bit in this whole, um, Agile story, Agile narrative. So is that also why you named your company Miro? Emison, uh, as far as I’m aware, that’s Finnish for human. Is that correct?

Romain Olives: That’s, yes, that’s correct.

It’s, it’s the Finnish [00:20:00] word for, that stands for human. You’re right. So yes, human is at the heart of Emison. You’re right with that.

Elisa Tuijnder: Any reason why you chose the Finnish word as well, or, or is that a way too personal story to ask now? No, no, no, not

Romain Olives: too personal. Um, yes, I will explain. In fact, there is two main reasons.

The first one it’s because I’m in love with Lapland . Okay. So you can come the Finnish, uh, uh, uh, Finnish country. Sorry. And I, I’m in love with Lapland. That’s [00:20:30] it. Yeah. And the second reason is because, um, Scandinavian countries are regularly, um, pushing innovative social disruption. Um, and, and this makes a lot of sense for me because, um, we see Ien, I felt we, because I’m not the only one at ien, but we see Ien.

Mm-Hmm. . As a way to show the world that we can work differently and with more happiness and more human being at this, at the, at the hurt of everything, of course. [00:21:00]

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. And what does Emison, you know, what do you provide with services, like, and where do the values lie or the accents lie on human centric leadership?

Are there any other areas that you guys really push forward as well?

Romain Olives: Yeah. So I have to explain a little bit what is Emison. So, um, Emison is composed of. Well, I will say four axis. The first one is a consulting firm where we provide generally agile lean [00:21:30] management 3. 0 and change management services with consultants.

The second axis is a training firm. So there we just do some training on several aspects, including management 3. 0, of course, and agile and lean words. The third axis is Emisen coaching. which is to provide a real professional coach certified and supervised to that will bring [00:22:00] the value of the coaching at every level of an organization.

And finally, the last axis is, um, EmissionTalk, which is to provide keynotes, uh, for our customers. They want to, uh, in order to speak. We speak mainly about Agile and Lean Word, but also about companies like Emisen that try to change the world and bring the human at the center of everything. So this is Emisen.

Um, now for our [00:22:30] customers, how we bring happiness to their home, I will say, uh, first because we are happy. So, uh, when you work with Emisen, you generally work with people that are happy. Uh, our consultants. Customers choose their mission, so they go in a mission because they want it, and this makes a huge difference.

Then, we share everything we can with our customers, so we can explain everything, how we have done something and so on, and if they want [00:23:00] to do the same thing, we are happy to help. And little by little, even if we are not so big for the moment, we are trying to change the world around us, uh, including with our partners, with our customers, with some associative, uh, organization and so on.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, absolutely. Fantastic. Here’s to you getting contact with a lot of different industries and, and client sides to them at the moment. Are you seeing A thread or some kind of tendency of that they all struggle with [00:23:30] the same things. Like, is there, is there a big challenge that or a concern that we can see across the board at the moment?

Romain Olives: Yeah, I think the main challenge is, is this cultural shift, in fact, in every industry at, uh, and in any, uh, I will say any organization, um, if you are 100 percent or 1000, it’s the same thing, basically. So this cultural shift is really difficult because it’s, uh, it’s not [00:24:00] tangible for them. And so,

Elisa Tuijnder: It’s a long process.


Romain Olives: it’s a long process. And so in order to understand what to do, they generally need, um, yes, a coach, consultants, call it how you want, but someone that will help them to, um, target what to do first, and in second, and in third, and so on, to little bit switch to a new culture. The real trap here is I think the organization that wants to do it in like six months.[00:24:30]

It’s a cultural shift, so it will take time by nature. Um, and, and so if, if you want to start a cultural transformation and say, okay, we have three months to do it, you, You can say almost now that it will fail. People need to be, uh, need to be trained, need to be, um, in contact with other people, external ones sometimes.

And, and this is exactly what will bring the value at the end and, [00:25:00] and, and change the cultural mindsets in the organization. So it’s hard work.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yes. It is hard work. And I was also wondering when you were speaking, um, cause I get this question every now and again as well. It’s. How do you make it measurable?

How, how is, cause you said we want to do this shift in three months. So how do we actually measure when a shift, I mean, the shift is never complete or a culture is never completely, um, completely measurable, but what are some of these indicators that you actually, or you and the [00:25:30] companies that you work with measure or pulse for to see that this, that things are working or things are shifting?

Um, so just wondering how you, yeah, how you do that.

Romain Olives: Well, uh, there, uh, I’m thinking about a product approach. I mean, when you want to sell a product, the main thing you want to know is if your end user enjoy it. Okay, so now you should transpose it to a cultural transformation, a cultural shift. This is your project and who are the [00:26:00] end users?

The employees of the company. So the main thing to do, I think, is just to go and talk with people at every level of the organization and ask them truly and in a safety environment, um, if they have see some difference and if they have. What kind of difference, uh, they are thin. And with that, you can probably interact some metrics, interesting metrics.

I mean, not vanity metrics, uh, that’s really interesting to analyze.

Elisa Tuijnder: [00:26:30] Yeah, absolutely. But it’s definitely more of a qualitative approach than. A quantitative approach. It’s not, you’ve sold this many, exactly.

Romain Olives: It’s about human beings. So you cannot have a quantitative, I will say, approach or at least you can bring some numbers, but you have to expect these numbers are not true, or at least.

Uh, not really, really good, so. Very influenced. Yeah.

Elisa Tuijnder: Hey, here on the podcast, as in with Management [00:27:00] 3point0, we are big fans of tangible practices. So every episode we like to end with, uh, with asking our guests about a practical approach or a tool or something, or just a tidbit of information, uh, that is so pungent.

Uh, that they can kind of start working with us just after they’ve listened to the podcast or just, you know, tomorrow with their teams on their own, et cetera. So is there anything that you would like to leave us with today, um, uh, as a practical [00:27:30] tool or process?

Romain Olives: Oh, yeah. Um, there is too much tools I can share.

Well, if I have to choose one, let me think. Um, Well, it’s not really a tool. It’s more a practice, but it’s more to, um, to ask, uh, our listeners to think about that for me, the main thing in every industry, the main thing which is missing is communication. All right. So what I generally advise. Uh, my customer is [00:28:00] also to help people or to train them to talk with a different approach.

For example, they can use non violent communication or something like that. And there is, um, this famous feedback wrap at management 3. 0. That is really, really helpful to do. Uh, quite easy to understand. It’s much harder to implement, at least orally, but there is a few ways to do it. And if you, um, train people to communicate better and more often together, just by [00:28:30] doing so, you will increase happiness naturally with that.

Of course, you have to avoid, uh, war, intern, intern war, I will say, within the organization, um, if you have. a safe environment to discuss, communicate and so on. This is, I think, a real good step to have a better organization at the end. So that will be my, uh, my advice.

Elisa Tuijnder: The feed, the feedback graph. Absolutely.

That’s definitely a good one. Hey, uh, so Romain, if they, if people of [00:29:00] any of our listeners feel like, um, they would like to get in contact with you or, or know some more about the company or about IMSEN, Where, where can they find you? Where can they find the company?

Romain Olives: Yes, everywhere. No, I’m joking. Um,

Elisa Tuijnder: Please shout on the street.

You go, Romain! Yeah, it

Romain Olives: would be cool, but unfortunately, no, we can’t do that.

Elisa Tuijnder: You scream Agile three times and you’re, you’re like a genie, you’re there.

Romain Olives: Yes, it’s wonderful. Perhaps it’s something we have to think about. [00:29:30] Elisa.

Elisa Tuijnder: We have to work out, yeah.

Romain Olives: Um, yeah, however, you have the traditional way, I will say.

So through LinkedIn, of course, you can reach my profile, even the Emisen page, and, um, the other way is to use our website, just Emisen. com where you have your information and, um, yes. And that’s it. I think there is plenty of article for LinkedIn that can tell the world where we are, basically.

Elisa Tuijnder: Perfect. I’ll make sure to link that in the show [00:30:00] notes as well.

So. Thank you very much for coming on to the show and explaining a little bit of what you do and, and your mission of putting more human and more happiness into, into business. Uh, we are all for it and we are all with you for that. So thank you

Romain Olives: very much. Thank you to you Elisa. Thanks.

Elisa Tuijnder: You’ve been listening to the Happiness at Work podcast [00:30:30] by Management 3. 0, where we are getting serious about happiness. Be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And if you enjoy our shows, don’t be shy. Write us a review. Share the happiness with your colleagues, family or friends. Follow us on Twitter, Facebook or LinkedIn under Management 3.

[00:31:00] 0.

Have a listen to more of our insightful podcasts