Leadership, LEGO, and NGOs

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Ivo Haase

It’s no secret that large corporations and organizations are embracing agile leadership, prioritizing people over processes, and learning to see the value in change.

But can agile leadership work for smaller and mid-size businesses or non-governmental organizations (NGOs)? 

Today we sit down with internationally recognized leadership trainer Ivo Haase, to discuss his work with smaller enterprises and NGOs in countries all over the world, including Poland, the Czech Republic, Tanzania and South Africa. We discuss what he’s learned from his experiences and how those lessons can be applied to organizations of all sizes. 

We also discuss his work as an international facilitator for Management 3.0 and LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY®, and Ivo offers some practical strategies and recommendations for leaders and trainers worldwide.

Key Points

  • Universal Agile Leadership: Insight into applying agile leadership effectively in small businesses and NGOs, showcasing its broad applicability.
  • Volunteering Impact: Exploring the intersection of professional expertise and volunteerism, highlighting the dual path of societal contribution and personal fulfillment.
  • Cross-Cultural Leadership: Lessons on the universality of leadership across different cultures, emphasizing adaptability and respect.
  • Innovative Workshops with LEGO®: The transformative use of LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® in workshops to enhance creativity, teamwork, and strategic planning.

Learn more about Ivo here. Connect with Ivo on LinkedIn here


Happiness means different things to each of us. After doing extensive research, Management 3.0 founder Jurgen Appelo discovered a common thread: Happiness is something we create. It is not something to achieve. It is a path you choose, not a destination to arrive at.

So many of us spend our lives in pursuit of happiness. Instead of searching for it, we need to find ways to live it, embrace it, and implement it into our daily lives. That’s why we created the 12 Steps to Happiness at Management 3.0.

You can find more information and even download a free poster of the 12 steps here.


*Please note that the transcript has been automatically generated and proofread for mistakes. But remains in spoken English, and some syntax and grammar mistakes might remain.

Elisa Tuijnder: [00:00:00] It’s no secret that large corporations and global organizations are embracing the concept of agile leadership, prioritizing people over processes and learning to see the value in change. But can agile leadership work for smaller and mid sized businesses or non governmental organizations? Today, we speak with an [00:00:30] internationally recognized trainer about his work with smaller enterprises and NGOs all over the world.

We discuss what he’s learned from his experience and how those lessons can be applied to organizations and businesses of all sizes. Before we dive in, you are listening to the Happiness at Work podcast by Management 3point0, where we are getting serious about happiness.[00:01:00]

I’m your host, Elisa Tuijnder, Happiness Enthusiast and Management 3point0 team member. In this podcast, we share insights from industry experts, influencers, and thought leaders about what it takes to be happy, motivated, and productive at work, so that loving your job becomes the norm and not the exception.

We will be publishing every fortnight on Friday, so be sure to tune in and subscribe to get Wherever you [00:01:30] get your podcasts.

Our guest today is Ivo Haase, an internationally recognized trainer and volunteer who has worked with NGOs, SMEs and other organizations in countries all over the world. Including Poland, the Czech Republic, Tanzania, South Africa, and many, many more. So thank you so much for joining us today, Ivo.

Ivo Haase: Hey, I’m happy that I can be here.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, great. I’ve been [00:02:00] meaning to catch up and have a talk with you. So I’m super excited to jump into this talk today about this fascinating concept of functional conflict. But before we jump in, we always start this podcast with the same question, and that is, what does happiness mean to you?

Ivo Haase: Actually happen.

Happiness, um, means to me that I can do what I’m good at, what I like to do, um, where I have an impact and, um, yeah, and where I consider something, um, as work where, um, I, I’m sometimes [00:02:30] wondering why people pay me for, because I enjoy so much and, um, yeah, and that’s kind of happiness for me. So I, I can have an impact on, on people.

That’s at least what I get as a feedback. So that’s, um, that’s really what makes me happy.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. And, and talking about, you know, impact, uh, a lot of the times of the podcast, we talk about business and leadership and those things that you do as well. But you also like, you know, have a specific connection with, with NGOs.

And I just want to know kind of, uh, what that entails, but also how you rolled into that. [00:03:00] How, what was the path that led you to combining these two concepts?

Ivo Haase: Actually, I think it’s, it’s connected a lot to, to my parents because I was always, um, engaged somewhere. So it started in primary school already when I had to function in the class.

Then, um, later at high school, I was, um, the, the speaker for the students and, um, And then I was in a choir and then I got involved in Leo Club, what is the youth organization of Lions Clubs International. And, um, and I did this all with a lot of [00:03:30] passion and got recognized. Um, and, um, yeah, and people gave me feedback.

Um, I got the awards and, um, I could, um, do projects. I was really into it. And, um, and maybe really one life changing experience was, um, that I did my civil service in the school for disabled children. And, um, I, I had the chance to, to care for, for a little boy who was in a wheelchair. He was blind. He, um, he had, um, autism and, um, he was autoregressive.

[00:04:00] So a lot of things. And I learned so much from this little, little boy. And, um, and we had a great time together. And, um, and I saw that some things in the school were not working properly. Um, so like in the class that was missing a carpet and in the area where the students arrived in the morning, um, with the cars and.

Um, it was very muddy and, and then I started to address these topics. I got partners involved and then we changed it. And I saw, okay, cool. When you get other people involved and, um, and when you get them engaged, then you can change something. And that’s how it started. [00:04:30] Um, back then people were reading newspapers, um, still no, they don’t do it anymore, but back then they did.

So, um, get to know your name and then they ask you to join, um, organizations and to be part of their projects. And, um, yeah, that’s how I became a member of Junior Chamber International. Uh, what is one of the biggest, um, organizations worldwide for entrepreneurs and young leaders. And, um, didn’t take long that I also went abroad, um, to, to, to do projects and somewhere else and, um, yeah, at a certain point [00:05:00] I started to, um, to become a trainer for this organization and did this voluntarily and some years later, one of the participants asked, um, Can you do this for my company too?

And I never thought about this before and I would pay you. And then I said, okay, let’s do this. Um, um, I, I don’t know how much they could charge or whatever. And I just said yes and did it. And this is how it started. And, um, and now it became a business that what I’m really happy about, but I will never forget, um, how it all started.

And it started with voluntary work and that’s [00:05:30] why still I’m running. Um, NGO and voluntary trainings, um, um, yeah, during the year where actually I not, don’t even get paid. I pay everything myself. So like, for example, I go to Belgrade, um, to work for Junior Chamber Serbia and, um, I will pay my flights, my hotel, um, all the materials, um, and yeah, and, um, I will deliver a great training and I will learn a lot from these guys.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, that’s fantastic. It’s actually funny, like, cause we don’t tend to put these two things together as, as normally, but I [00:06:00] started it sort of the other way around. I, I wanted to always, you know, work in NGO as a study, sort of everything close to that. And, um, and that ended up kind of being a little disillusioned by it and stepping back.

And, and, and now I feel like here there’s the same, um, motive for doing what we do, like is bringing change and bringing happiness and making everything a little bit better. And so it’s funny how that intersection is actually more More present than you would, than you would think. Um, the NGOs that you, that you work for, and like, we should say that those are non [00:06:30] governmental organizations, are they always sort of linked to young entrepreneurs, to leadership, or is it very varied?

Ivo Haase: It’s, it’s, it’s depending on the country, like in Germany, um, it’s not only Junior Chamber International. It’s, we call it Wirtschaftsunion. They’re very closely connected to our Chambers of Commerce. So you have a lot of, um, young leaders, company owners, entrepreneurs. So here it’s more, um, um, that kind of approach when you go to other countries, they have more of this active citizen, um, approach, um, so about developing, um, [00:07:00] leaders for changing world.

That’s the claim at the moment. And, um, actually for me, it doesn’t matter too much because in my trainings, I consider everyone to be a leader. And um, I always say Everyone is.

Elisa Tuijnder: Everyone actually is. Yeah. And that’s what I

Ivo Haase: keep telling them because sometimes people say, ah, yeah, but you know, but I don’t, I’m not responsible for other people.

And so I keep telling them, yeah, but you could, if you want to, and, and I will treat you like, um, you, you are a leader and, uh, you don’t have to be, if you don’t want to, I will force nobody. But I will treat everybody, um, um, like this and I even do, by the way, when I [00:07:30] do my voluntary trainings in our local high school.

So even when I have students in the 11th and 12th grade, I will always call them leaders and, um, and treat them like this because, uh, yeah, I, I’m totally convinced everyone, um, that wants to be a leader can be a leader.

Elisa Tuijnder: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think, yeah. As for some it comes more natural, as you say, natural born leader, right?

But like, it’s not, it’s a skill that can be developed and even that sometimes it’s not a great thing because you’re only like, if you’re only relying on your intuition and not the concepts around it, it might actually [00:08:00] steer you in the wrong direction, uh, sometimes. Um, so. I wondered whether, do the NGOs have a different set of challenges?

Do the people that you work with have a different set of challenges or a different set of goals than say, for example, the people that I tend to talk to more often on this podcast, which is in a corporate setting, um, or do you think it’s actually all, all the same?

Ivo Haase: Actually, from my experiences, um, from doing trainings in nearly 30 countries now and traveling a lot and, um, and working for different industries, [00:08:30] it’s nearly the same everywhere.

So, so it’s a challenge to get, um, people involved and to make them believe in your idea and to help you to create some kind of impact. Um, that’s in the corporate world. I mean, we have a lack of labor force, so, and it’s a big challenge for many companies to, to retain, um, uh, their people and to get new ones.

And actually in many NGOs, it’s similar. So, um, In both worlds, you need the big why, um, for, for now, especially the generations that are entering the labor market now, and also the NGO labor market, [00:09:00] I mean, there are also some kind of, maybe a mix out of employees and customers. So when you want to attract people that are involved in your, your NGO and you need to face, um, similar challenges, um, but in the end, And in many different areas, I see that, um, that there are more similarities among the people than differences, um, independent from, from the continent you are working.

And actually, um, in the end, people want to grow somehow. They, they want to see some kind of development for themselves and maybe also for some, also for their business and, and for the [00:09:30] environment. Um, but in the end, um, no matter if it’s a corporate environment or an NGO environment, you need to deliver, um, and, and you need to provide growth opportunities, and then you will get great people for your organizations that will help you to thrive.

Elisa Tuijnder: I was wondering as well, because of your, your experience from working in so many different countries, like there’s been so many books written around, um, you know, all the cultural differences when you’re a meeting designer or you’re a learning facilitator or any of these things that there’s so many different Yes, and there are small nuances, [00:10:00] but I also have the feeling that actually, in essence, it’s all the same.

So I wondered what your, what your, what your input on that

Ivo Haase: is. Actually, first for the differences in the world, um, actually, it doesn’t matter if I’m in quite a rich country or poor country, the necessarities of the people are similar. They want to have a good life. They want to have a better life for their, for their children.

They want to do something with meaning. They want to feel safe. They want to be heard. This is actually all over the world, my experience, and it doesn’t matter whether it’s in Asia, where we maybe have a more collective approach. [00:10:30] Um, or in Western Europe, um, where maybe the individual approach is, um, is, is the more and more recent one.

And um, and when it comes to intercultural studies and all the books, independent from this topic, um, I keep telling my participants in the training and I also did today when it came to time and self management. I said, as long as there’s more than one book. Then these books are only about opinion because if somebody found a solution that fits for everybody, there would be only one book about this topic in the bookstore, but it’s not.

There are many, many books, um, [00:11:00] for, for management, for leadership, for time management, and also for intercultural management. So maybe you can share some observations, you can share some approaches, but in the end, um, it’s a lot of opinions and, um, and everybody needs to find out him or herself. For me, I learned.

The difference are there not so many differences? There are more similarities and, um, and, and the more we focus on what we have in common, the better This at the end. I mean, of course I like different cultures. I like, um, mm-hmm, different. So for example, when I go abroad, I always ask [00:11:30] for songs from these countries that people send me before that I can play in the Briggs.

And, um, that’s why I really get to cool playlist in the meantime, but, um, but in the end, it’s more about these food, music stuff, um, where do you have some differences that you can celebrate? But in the end, when it comes how we treat each other, um, what is important to us, uh, where there’s meaning, um, there we have more similarities than, than differences.

And that’s quite a nice learning that makes me optimistic for the future of these [00:12:00] playlists. Absolutely.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, I’ve joked before that the one and only thing I really take care of, depending on the culture, is the length of the lunch.

Ivo Haase: As you can imagine, as a German, this should be me, because usually I would say, let’s have 45 minutes and then you know what’s going on.

So, um, let’s say like, 90 minutes and then I know, okay, it will take two hours. This may be, maybe a difference or, um, yeah, maybe also in some countries, um, it’s about being on time. I mean, [00:12:30] it’s just a question of culture that you have to adopt. I mean, um, I learned that in many countries, I mean, they have a lot of hospitality and they’re like me.

But they will not change their culture for me. And, um, I know there’s some They wouldn’t

Elisa Tuijnder: want to as well, right? Yeah, yeah.

Ivo Haase: And sometimes I’m begging them to be in the training venue at least one hour before the training starts to prepare. And I know in some countries I will still sit in the lobby of the hotel at the start of the training, but it will work out somehow in the end.

And the more I react with acceptance and just, um, Yeah, let it [00:13:00] go and, and, and trust the process. It’s fine because in the end, um, on the other end, then they are not, not so much connected to the finish time of the training when, when we set five, but they know we started two hours late when they stay until six, as long as we are not interfering with the, with the dinner.

The next thing. Yeah. And, and, and in the end, um, it’s, um, it’s fine the way it is. So, so like, like when, when dealing with, let’s say difficult or challenging people where acceptance is a good approach. For me, it became also for the circumstances and, um, but this is [00:13:30] something I had to learn as a trainer. So, um, when I made the experience for the first time, it was shocking so that I could not stick to my process.

But in the end, um, um, my life is easier and also for the organizers abroad. Um, when I just say, okay, we’ll work out somehow I’m ready. So, and I got even. More detailed and obsessed when it comes to preparation. So when I needed several hours to prepare a training room, when I started to be a trainer today, um, I prepare everything already in Germany.

I have it in my, in my back and I can prepare a training [00:14:00] room like in half an hour and everything looks nice and the setup. Um, and, um, I do what I can before so that I feel like

Elisa Tuijnder: you can do both sides there. I think I’ve done both sides. I’ve, I always take a lot of my stuff, but I’ve done, I’ve done training and, and, and things in, in the DRC in Congo and in Nigeria.

And I mean, I can’t actually already organize a generator or a foresee a flood, or sometimes I also go like, okay, yeah, this, these are the things in my control, like the circles of influence from Kobe, right? Like this is what I [00:14:30] can handle. This is just. I know,

Ivo Haase: I know what you mean. In one training in Tanzania, in Dar es Salaam, actually, we, we went out of electricity during the training because we paid, um, electricity was gone and then somebody had to do it with mobile phone again, that was a nice learning.

I, I, I didn’t expect that something like this is possible. It always fixes though. It worked, it worked and it’s fine. And we did something with flip charts in between. And, um, as I said, the more experience you, you get as a trainer, the easier it gets also to, to react. And [00:15:00] what I learned, um, from, for my work in an NGO from a very experienced trainer, when I was still a newbie, um, um, he kept telling us.

the people are there for you to, to, to be part of your training and you have a responsibility and nobody cares whether the airline lost your luggage and lost your materials. Um, you need to deliver. So be prepared to work with what you have. And, um, this is something I learned when I was very young already as a, or newcomer as a trainer.

And, um, yeah, and this is [00:15:30] influencing my, my attitude until today. So, um, I want the best for, um, for the participants and I will work with what I have. And, um, it always worked out. And, um, and, and actually the most powerful tool still is a piece of paper, the pen, you can do like one day, um, training with a paper and pen and with using the participants, um, still for me, the most important resource that you can have in a room.

And, um, and then when you switch, um, but also this is a process from the trainer, [00:16:00] um, to the facilitator and maybe moderator role, then, um, yeah, then, then you don’t need too many materials actually. Yeah,

Elisa Tuijnder: exactly. They don’t necessarily know what you have in store or what technical, technicalities that you’ve planned.

And the flexibility of it is often implied as well there. And we said it before, like, you’re a Management 3point0 facilitator as well, and you use this. I wonder what, what for you makes it such a powerful methodology?

Ivo Haase: Actually, um, because you see, um, that a lot, [00:16:30] lot of love was involved when creating the material.

Yeah. It’s very important. It’s very careful the way, when you like, when you have get the pack of moving motivators in your hand, it, it feels great. And, um, and the participants, they also feel this and, um, and that we keep the, um, the materials updated. So that’s very important. That you can deliver something, um, that something official and that is that you get a certificate and this is important.

Yeah. And, um, and that’s why, for example, even if I do, um, these [00:17:00] management 3point0 trainings, um, for an NGO and, and when, when covering the cost myself. I still, um, pay for, um, for the official license because I want them to have the official certificate. It’s important for me because, um, I know it means something for them and they will put it on their CVs and they will put it on their walls and I can see them sharing it on LinkedIn and, and, and I see that’s making them happy and, um, and they see the value and, and very often they do not apply for the training because they, um, they know it’s a [00:17:30] big, um, community, but they find out, find out later and then they see the value behind it.

And, um, and actually, um, all, all the change management game, the delegation poker, um, the feedback wrap, all these tools are very intuitive. So, and then, but all over the world, they get a connection and they feel something immediately. I liked, uh, the sketch notes. Um, it makes it for me very easy as a trainer.

Um, that I can share on the slides, at least the public version. Also, this makes my work and my life as a trainer, um, very easy. And for many [00:18:00] people, there’s a lot of value in getting these materials afterwards. So, um, yeah, it’s very attractive to, uh, to use this Management 3point0, um, trainings, um, in the NGO world, but also in the, in the corporate world, of course.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, absolutely. I think we all need some playfulness, um, even if we’re talking about serious topics and that’s just the power of it sometimes. I wondered as well, like, whether you sometimes get the comment, because I see this often in corporates and especially longer, uh, in corporates that, that have been established for a long time or in certain industries where they say, [00:18:30] yes, but this, this man, like this kind of style that only works in certain, certain companies or in certain like startups or that’s when that works.

For us, that doesn’t work. Like, and there’s a, In certain countries, I see more resistance than in others. So I wondered whether you see that sometimes as well, like, you know, you’re coming there to talk about work for happiness and, and all of these things, especially in certain countries that are officially development assisted countries.

Like I can see that sometimes maybe to be like, yeah, well, we’re dealing with different things, um, or some people might say that, although I think [00:19:00] they should be dealing with both of them at the same time, probably.

Ivo Haase: It’s. Actually, it’s, it’s very often that I do not discuss too much the tools and the methodology with the customers.

Um, I asked them, um, what they want to change and, um, what, and what should be different at the end of, of the training, and then they need to trust me. And then I will explain them. And very often I use, um, uh, modules or the whole program of management 3. 0. And, um, and if I see that they do not trust me, this is not a good foundation, um, for a relationship.[00:19:30]

Uh, but in most cases, um, actually, I can’t remember one where it didn’t work out. Um, so I would have to think about it now, uh, but maybe, maybe there was none. I don’t know. Um, in the end, um, there was the trust and then I delivered at the end. And um, and, um, yeah, that’s why, um, maybe when they would knew before all the colors and so maybe there, there would be a little skeptic or, or what started with passion, but in the end, um, I promise results and I promise that I do my best.

Um, and this should be enough. And, um, and if [00:20:00] this is not enough, then sometimes maybe it’s better not to work together. But, um, that’s true than, than you need a trainer. But you know, it’s, it’s more about the trainer. You need to be convinced. Um, as you know, I use a lot of legacy with play and sometimes I have trainer colleagues saying, yeah, this looks like an interesting methodology and maybe I should use this tool.

And then I’m like, yeah, you know. This may be not the best foundation because you need to be totally convinced that it works. And for me, it works for students. For me, I’m using it with doctors and nurses in a leadership program. I’m using [00:20:30] it with entrepreneurs. I’m using it with senior leadership guys and with junior leadership guys, but because I’m totally convinced, um, and I can show that I’m about it.

And, and so people trust me. Um, if I have doubts myself, it’s like in all areas of leadership or training, people will feel it and they will also get doubts, but when you are convinced from your methods, from, um, from your content, um, from your style, then, um, there will, there will be no doubts from the other side.

Elisa Tuijnder: Maybe for our listeners that haven’t [00:21:00] heard about LEGO Series Play, could you explain kind of what that entails? What do you do in the workshop that involves LEGO Series Play?

Ivo Haase: It’s actually really, really cool because it’s an official series from LEGO, so they have their own packs. You can see it on the webpage.

You can get, um, and you can become a licensed facilitator as I did. Uh, I was really lucky. I learned from Marco Rillo in Estonia. Um, and I learned from Sean Blair, um, who is, um, I mean, [00:21:30] maybe he wouldn’t like to hear it, but it’s with a lot of respect. He’s kind of the Yoda of a Lego series player because he knows everything.

And, um, it’s amazing, um, um, what you can learn from him also as a facilitator. And, um, yeah, and I’m using these materials, um, Nearly all of my workshops, because it’s a good start, um, actually I let people build a tower and I let them introduce what’s a tower. I use it for metaphors and later also for storytelling.

And, um, and this is maybe then, um, already Champions League, um, you can build shared models. Like for example, [00:22:00] people can build a model, um, out of the Lego bricks, what they consider, um, to be a great team. So, and then they, and then you put like six, seven people together and say, okay, it’s very interesting.

This is your individual and personal perception of what a great team is. Now the challenge is let’s build, um, build a shared model of what you consider a great or an impactful team. And then they have a discussion about the topic. Um, they need to let go from some ideas they have and they develop new ideas together and they work on something together.

And this [00:22:30] process is very interesting. And then they share it, um, and so that others, um, can listen to it. And I consider this methodology as very powerful for learners because you hear something, people tell a story, you see something, um, because something is going on, people show, um, show, um, something with the model.

And also there’s some movement going on. So even if you want to touch something, you have the bricks in your hand. So all the different channels of learning of communications are attracted. And that’s what makes these, these [00:23:00] methodology very powerful. Then it’s colorful. It looks nice. People feel reminded, um, of their childhood.

So you also create a cozy atmosphere and they can take something home for, um, for their children or for friends. So I’ve never taken the bricks back. So I tell people, you know what, it’s your mistake at home. And if you, if you don’t want them, ask somebody if he or she has one or two or three children or more, and then keep it.

And there’s always somebody, um, that, um, that is happy to get the Lego bricks. Yeah. [00:23:30] And I have one program, as I said, for doctors and nurses, um, at several hundred participants now, um, they are part of one big organization. And now very often I meet people telling me, you know what, I came in an office and there was a little Lego tower standing behind, um, this guy and I met him for the first time and I said.

Maybe this person was, uh, was participant at Ivo’s workshop. Let’s start the conversation like this. And very often now, um, um, they, they have a foundation to, um, to talk about it. And, and that’s what I like about it. Also the power of metaphors also [00:24:00] is something, um, that means a lot to me. Um, I mean, I told you that I’m just in a training, so now it’s the evening break, of course, but today I visited some friends living close to my city.

They are running a husky farm. And I do leadership training with Huskies because you can learn from how the pack is reacting so much about, um, leadership to give you one example. And this pack, um, they have it for 25 years. It’s never the biggest and strongest dog that is the leader, um, of this pack. It’s always the dog.

Um, all the other docs [00:24:30] trust the most. And this is something people will never forget, um, for, for their own leadership style and also that you do not put the fastest dog in front of the sledge, but you put him where he can be beneficial for the whole team so people can connect with this metaphors to the content.

And, um, and if they forget all other content, but that usually a female dog and the dog, uh, the pack trusts the most as a leader, these people never forget. I, I realized that.

Elisa Tuijnder: It’s very funny because it’s come to very sad at the same time. It’s really come to the forefront very recently with the [00:25:00] whole alpha male kind of narrative and this toxic sort of culture that is building around it.

And this metaphor of this, of the wolf pack and the husky pack and all of these kinds of things is, it’s completely the opposite, right? It’s those dogs, they’re not the leaders.

Ivo Haase: No, the alpha dog concept, or this is something, or alpha wolf, this is something invented by human beings because in contrast to wolves, I mean, huskies, they live in a pack of different families, but, um, we also have a lot of wolves here in my region.

Um, and, um, and [00:25:30] what is great actually for our nature. And, um, of course you have an alpha dog there, but because it’s a father, um, don’t have people from different families together. So the mother and the father, they are running their pack or their family. And, and when, when the young ones are old enough, they, they found their own, um, family.

So that’s why. People sometimes have the perception there’s like something like a leader, but in the family, you would also not say, Oh, who is the leader here? The mother or the father. So it’s a strange view. It’s something that we created perspective. We created [00:26:00] actually, yeah, totally right. And, um, and in HuskyPeg, um, um, you can see it even more because, um, Huskies, they also don’t have these, um, these behavior of protecting and they are not, um, they have no aggression anymore.

So they are just trying to solve things. And what, what I really like about, um, working with this Husky pack, um, all the dogs at the pack are important and, and they have to, and I think this is very important also when we deal with different people, because in my leadership and management trainings, I focus a lot on the [00:26:30] different roles we have to fulfill.

And I keep telling my participants, if you take only one thing out of this training, never forget, you are not your role. Your role is connected to certain expectations and tasks that you need to fulfill, but when you are in a different role, you’re in a different role. And whether you are the manager or not says nothing about you as a person, something totally different.

Um, and. I mean, basically we can see this, that great leaders and great managers are usually also very good at being led and being managed by others [00:27:00] when they see it’s a necessity. So they do not connect their role to their ego. And, um, this is something that it’s very important learning.

Elisa Tuijnder: What leads to a happy life? What are the various ways to be happy? Happiness means different things to each of us. Yet after doing extensive research, Management 3point0 founder Juergen Appelow discovered the common thread. [00:27:30] Happiness is something we create. It is not something to achieve. It is a path you choose, not a destination to arrive at.

So many of us spend our times in pursuit of happiness. Yet instead of searching for it, we need to find ways to live it, embrace it, and implement it into our daily lives. We created the 12 Steps to Happiness at Management 3point0. You can find more information and even download a [00:28:00] free poster of the 12 Steps.

And management3o. com slash practice.

Do you use like Lego seriously as well to, um, a bit like how we mentioned 3point0, we can also use the meddler’s game to kind of visualize the organization, visualize. Where things go wrong. And have you seen really cool results there?

Ivo Haase: Yeah, absolutely. And it’s, um, it’s, some years ago I went to a printing company and um, very, um, traditional one, and they had all [00:28:30] these handcraft stuff.

They had, yeah. Had marketing and, um, HR area. And they had the management. Very hierarchical. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but, but the manager, the new one, he, he wanted to break this up and, and then I, okay. I, I separated, um, the participants and the group, the one that, uh, were running the printing machines.

Then all these HR and marketing guys and the management and everybody should, uh, had to build his, um, his view of the, of the printing company. And, and they did. And the CEO guys, they built an office and the [00:29:00] marketing guys, they built a rocket, really saw the , but. And the guys that were really printing the books and the magazines, they were building their machines.

And it was very interesting how, how different the views were on, on their, their own company. And then we, they built another shared model, their company in 10 years. And it was very interesting how they brought things together and how they developed, um, a certain understanding of, um, yeah, what their business is about and, and what, uh, what is important for the other areas.

[00:29:30] And, and this is easier when you’re. Take it out of the person themselves. It’s, it’s, I don’t, I mean, it’s, it’s maybe a little connected to, to culture in Germany. Um, for people, it’s not so easy to talk about their strengths. Um, they know their weaknesses. They also know the weakness of the company when you ask them, they get a long list.

When you let them build their strengths and they are outside and they can, can share it and talk about it, it’s easier for them to, because it’s not, not inside anymore. And, um, and you can make things transparent and actually very often [00:30:00] we have very interesting learnings. And, and what I really love about, um, Lego Series Play, um, for the introduction round that I mentioned, people are building the tower and then I tell them that they have to introduce themselves with the tower and that they are bigger on top of the tower.

And, um, there was like. This is amazing because I didn’t know what to build, but now it fits perfectly. Because the magic has happened here in the brain. the associations

Elisa Tuijnder: that you make

Ivo Haase: without realizing. I mean, of course, um, you also build something of yourself. So if you are [00:30:30] some, for, for some people I know before already, whether they will build a very high tower, some are building a very, But even if you let them change, um, the towers, but, uh, sometimes as they do this, they still can connect and, and find association.

Um, they, they find metaphors and, um, and they can, um, yeah, build connections to whatever they, they have in their hands. And this is what makes these, these methods very, very powerful.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, it’s a real cool tool. And I think it’s the same principle as all the things like, like you said before, [00:31:00] as all the things that we do at Management 3point0 as well.

Like Visualizing and making, and, and, and making sure that we, all these different types of learning. touching, feeling, seeing, understanding and yeah, and making those really difficult concepts sometimes more easily accessible. That is actually super powerful. Way more powerful than training. Then training used to be like, hello, I am here.

I’m going to tell you exactly how you have to do this now. Absolutely.

Ivo Haase: I mean, this is, yeah, this is an approach. I don’t know if there are still trainers [00:31:30] out there doing this. So, um, I think it’s really more about getting afraid.

Elisa Tuijnder: So

Ivo Haase: really, um, I think it’s way more powerful to get the content out of the participant’s head and to let them make connections to what they already know, instead of trying to get something inside what is not there yet.

And, um, and what I also like about Management 3point0, but also Lego Series Play, because it’s so colorful and playful. Some people forget that maybe they don’t have these nice memories [00:32:00] from their own school time. This is something I had to learn because my school time, as I said, was great. My teachers loved me.

I love my teachers and my, my friends at school. And I was waiting after four weeks of summer holidays, I was already, let’s go back to school. And when I started to be a trainer, I thought it was for everybody the same. And then I learned, Oh, for some people, really, they don’t have these great memories from, um, from, from school.

So I need to change the setup. Um, they should not be reminded when entering a training room, um, as adults, um, on their [00:32:30] school time, but should be totally different. And this is what helps them now learning to have psychological safety and, um, and also to, yeah, to open up and, and to, um, and to contribute.

And, um, and that’s what It’s helpful when you have something that is maybe more connected to, to positive memories of the childhood. And this is why this colorful approach also is very, very good.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, there’s, there’s, there’s also something super important in the way you set up your room and, and like the school days for you were great, but for certain people [00:33:00] it’s really linked to hierarchical ways and basically being quiet.

So kind of continuing to see people then as adults and leaders, not as I’m the teacher, you’re the, you’re the one who’s going to listen to me right now. Absolutely.

Ivo Haase: And this, this was a great learning for me because as I said, school was great for me. I’m very good in learning while listening. So when I went to school, it was more like this.

You, you went to school and the teacher was, was talking all the time and maybe you had a little group work, but in fact, you learn from the teacher. And for me, it was very easy. Today, I know that, that it was a [00:33:30] pain for many other people and, and many of my friends in school that had a hard time, um, um, learning and, um, and getting good grades, it was because for them, a different approach would have been better, like more colorful, like having flip charts and being very interactive.

Um, actually today, even as an adult, as a participant, I am happy when I can sit on my place in the last row, listen to the trainer. I’m fine as a participant. I’m totally different than as a trainer. Although I know that it’s, it’s good for learning. When I come into the room the second day [00:34:00] and I have to change my seat, there’s no need for me.

I’m like, oh, come on. Why can’t I operate on my, I get comfortable as a, as a trainer, I do my, I do it myself and change the setting because I know it’s, it’s good for learning, but, but for me, yeah, it’s always, um, that I have to leave my comfort zone. I also don’t need flip charts actually, although I like nego series play.

I don’t need it for learning, but the majority of people, they need stuff like this and they, they do not learn from lectures. Of course, when you are, I mean, when you are this kind of silverback, yeah, when you have like, I don’t know, an [00:34:30] Elon Musk or, or whoever you want to, you name it. Of course, you can listen to these persons for one or two hours when they just share stories, but, um, for the majority of people, um, and lecturers, this is not the approach to go.

The more content, um, development and the more teaching you can, um, you can delegate to the participants, the easier it gets. By the way, there’s also. A very nice, um, and great connection to the training from the back of the room approach that also fits very well with [00:35:00] Management 3point0. So I’m a trainer, but training from the back of the room myself.

Um, and, um, I connect this a lot. So I let the participants, um, do a lot of the, the, the work. Um, sometimes it, maybe it looks like I’m lazy, but it’s a lot of preparation work. And

Elisa Tuijnder: that’s

Ivo Haase: how they learn. But when I entered a room, then actually most of the work is done. And then I just create the environment and the framework for the participants so that they can have a good time and that they learn from each other.

And, um, and actually when they leave the room. Having the feeling that they [00:35:30] maybe are one or two centimeters bigger than they were when they entered. Then this is my why. So then I saw, okay, growth happened. And they are more self confident. Um, they maybe, um, take the next challenge, they’re leaving the comfort zone, then, um, this is my big why.

And then I’m happy to connect those questions again.

Elisa Tuijnder: What is that? And obviously you don’t need to tell any names or anything, but I’m curious to see, like, what was your training or facilitation or, or projects that you did that you feel like, Hey, I left the most impact here, or, um, so [00:36:00] something where you just think now, like, okay, that one is the first thing that came to my head.

I hope there are many, but, um, I

Ivo Haase: have one, I have one very recent one. Um, it’s not so long ago. I had a training in Beirut. Um, I have a lot of friends in Lebanon and, um, it was like three or four months ago. And, um, to see these great guys, um, having really a hard time, um, with, uh, outer, um, um, so was the circumstances around, um, the dysfunctional state and they [00:36:30] had this explosion and now, um, they even have something worse going on, but they are still happy.

They’re still optimistic. They’re still so keen on learning and getting something new. And they’re so grateful, um, when somebody is coming, um, to them for them. And, um, And, and seeing their faces in the end, um, it really made me happy. And I brought, I brought kudo cards for them and, uh, and, and they, um, and they make, made a small bag for, for all participants.

And, and they put for each participant, the task was [00:37:00] to write a kudo card and. I mean, I didn’t even realize it over the two days, but they made one for me. And this is something, um, this says a lot about, uh, about the people there. They’re showing so much hospitality. They’re so kind. And, um, yeah, and in the end, I had the feeling, um, that I could give something back to them and, um, that, That they were a little, even more self confident that they were before.

And this, this left, uh, left something in me. And, um, by the way, um, next year I will go [00:37:30] to Beirut again and we will do a management 3. 0 training, um, for them, for, for the, the NGO and I’m looking forward to this a lot and, um, because, um, yeah, as I said, they’re great people. And, um, And I’m always impressed how, um, what people can do under difficult.

Resilience. Yeah, they’re really resilient. Yeah. And, and sometimes, and I think a lot of them, um, especially when I think, ah, this is unfair that I cannot get this or that this is not working. And I think, come on, think of these great people there. [00:38:00] Um, they are struggling and they are doing it with a happy face and they are inviting you to dinner in the evening, spending a lot of time with you and, um, writing QR codes.

Although you didn’t ask them to. Um, this is maybe, um, yeah. Well, I would say, um, there I had, had a big impact. Yeah. JC ly gone onto the National, international and also in Beirut. Um, but also, um, I could make another connection. I, I was lucky that I could do before. Um, yeah. Um, the, the things, um, um, started in Iran, um, the last years, I, I [00:38:30] had the chance to, to travel there and to do trainings in Tehran.

Um, and it’s unbelievable, um, how great they are and how happy they are. Somebody’s coming from abroad to, yeah, to learn with them and, um, and to see the good sides in their, in their country and in their culture than them. And, um, yeah, this, this is, they were leaving. Leaving traces. And, um, again, this is also something that makes me happy.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, for our listeners that might not know, uh, KudoCards are a practice from Management 3point0, whereby you [00:39:00] basically, it’s basically a thank you card, uh, and it’s just, yeah, taking it back offline in a nice actual card. We also have them online, but.

Ivo Haase: They are really, really great. I use them a lot, especially because I’m coming from a region in Germany.

We are not so good in praising people and it’s a North Northwest. So actually, um, one of the biggest compliments you can get here is, okay, you can’t complain. So this is like four and a half out of five stars. So, but with CUDO cards and we have a German version called Lobkärtchen, [00:39:30] so, um, I’m trying to change it.

So I use actually CUDO cards at all of my trainings.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. Yeah. I do feel it’s a bit changing in Germany as well. I have myself live in Berlin at the moment, and, and there’s been lot, lot of my youth in Hamburg. Um, so I feel like also there, like the new generation is, is, is a little better at this also because we know that it’s important to not just bottle everything up and give praise and give, give thank you.

And of course with all the, um, with all the

Ivo Haase: new people coming to Germany, um, no matter why for work or [00:40:00] students or maybe sometimes mm-hmm because they look for a better future. Um, you see these diversity is working and of course they’re bringing their, their culture and it’s changing, um, step by step, not from one moment to the other, but, uh, but it’s a nice way of, of changing and, and, um, yeah, and we can learn from other, um, countries exactly, um, to, to praise more and also, um, maybe to adopt our, our feedback a little.

Um, when I work for international, um, corporations, I very often hear the term German feedback and actually. [00:40:30] German feedback means you leave all the nice part, because if you don’t speak in support, you immediately go to, I want to change that thing up. It just gets to the, that was, that was, that was no good.

And when I have my, my German participants, I keep telling them, don’t forget if you have people that were socialized or brought up somewhere else. We are one end of the spectrum.

Elisa Tuijnder: Feedback wrap,

Ivo Haase: feedback wrap. Yeah, keep this in mind that maybe it can be confusing to give feedback like you are used to. Yeah,

Elisa Tuijnder: that’s the one thing where the cultural [00:41:00] differences are quite interesting.

Myself, I’m Dutch, I’m Belgian heritage and background and English, lived there for a long time. And it’s especially feedback and peer reviewing and those kinds of things. are very different in different countries, uh, and can be very sensitive, uh, as well. And to be aware of those is interesting. You know, you mentioned in the beginning as well about around volunteering and that’s how it all started.

And, and, you know, you, you still continue to do that. You’ve received a, an award for that, [00:41:30] um, which congratulations on that. Um, I wondered whether, whether you’ve learned anything about leadership from all of the volunteer stuff that you’ve done, or is there anything that stands, um, how has it influenced maybe the way that you teach or?

Or anything that you’ve learned about management and leadership from, from your volunteer work?

Ivo Haase: Yeah, there are, there are many things actually. From my point of view, um, volunteer work and unpaid work is, um, it’s very, it’s a very important part of, um, of our life, especially when we are [00:42:00] blessed living in a region where where we don’t have to worry how to pay our rent or whatever.

So, um, it’s about like, like paying, paying it forward and, and giving, giving back something and, and getting again, even more back than you invested. Um, as I said, I’m only a trainer because I started to do trainings for free and actually, uh, many of the trainings that I do for free in the end, Somebody is remembering my name or putting it on Instagram or LinkedIn and, um, and the corporation is calling me.

So I mean, I’m [00:42:30] not doing it because of this, but it’s an effect. And I keep telling people, you need to put something in before you take something out. Um, and, um, and yeah, what, what I also learned, it’s always about the people. So you need to, um, to deliver why you need to get them involved. You, um, You need to tell them, um, um, you need to be transparent.

Um, these are all things that you, that you learn, uh, when working for a volunteer organization and you can make mistakes and learn from them. So you, you were talking about like being a [00:43:00] natural leader or something like this. Um, I, I don’t believe something like this is existing. Like you said, um, you can, um, you can learn it, um, and, and you can become a leader if you want to, um, Nevertheless, I learned it’s easier for people that made these, um, um, trial and error approach when they were younger, like working in a youth organization of a party or being in the, in the firefighters or the scouts or whatever, it doesn’t matter actually where you are involved, but, but you learn a lot about leadership.

You learn a lot about humans that you [00:43:30] can benefit of, um, when, uh, when you are an adult and, and actually one of the best things that you can do as a parent. is to, to give your children the chance, um, to be involved somewhere and to, to see yourself as, as a part of the society and that it’s the actually normal to, um, to do something where you’re not paid for.

So it’s, for me, it’s something, something normal and, um, and, um, yeah, and it’s a driver for me. And, um, and actually, um, yeah, I’m happy about, um, each project idea that is coming, [00:44:00] coming into my mind and, um, Like, for example, today I had a conversation with the German Chamber of Commerce in Bosnia and Sarajevo, where I did a training today, and we want to do something for the SOS Children Village there on the 8th of March, because International Women’s Day is, um, is going on.

Yeah. Yeah. Which is a

Elisa Tuijnder: holiday here in Berlin. This is great.

Ivo Haase: Since I was born in eastern Germany, so for me it’s a big thing too. And, uh, last time, uh, when I did a little project there for, and, and, and, um, [00:44:30] donating some school materials there for the SOS, um, Children’s Village in Sarajevo, I learned that they have something, some women that kind of are also working voluntarily like aunts of the family.

So when the mothers sometimes they need to do something or they’re, you know, they’re maybe, um, they are at their borders, then they step in. And, and then I looked at the, uh, the manager of the chamber of commerce, um, there, and I said, Hey, we have to do something for them. Let’s, let’s find something nice to, to show them, um, we see what you are doing.

So it’s not, we don’t take it for granted. And, um, this is how [00:45:00] these ideas are developing. And, and in the end, Um, we will do a nice project. We will make, um, many people happy. And in the end, maybe even something, um, um, with a connection to a corporate, um, as a result that if not, then not, but most probably it will.

So in the end, um, yeah, it’s, it’s like, um, it’s, it’s good for everybody. And, um, and as I said, um, for me, it’s, it’s part of my life. It nourishes your soul. Yeah. It has been for, for, for 25 years, um, to, to look for responsibility, [00:45:30] to be in charge and And to, I mean, of course I also complain, but the next step, then I say, okay, let’s change it, um, and do something about it.

And, um, yeah, this is something, um, yeah, this is nothing special for me. This is for me, um, to be a responsible citizen, citizen. And that’s maybe why this connection to Junior Chairman International. was so easy because our values, um, we are fit. Aligned too. We are aligned, exactly. Yeah.

Elisa Tuijnder: You’re also always allowed to compare.

I mean, everybody has a frame of reference and, and [00:46:00] your lived experiences. Sometimes some of them, they are also hard, right? So we all have our own little boxes, but as long as we are aware of things outside of it, we can, and there’s understanding. Hey, here on the podcast, we always like to end with the last question around a tangible practice.

I mean, you use a lot of them from Management 3point0, uh, but is there anything that our listeners might not know yet? Or I don’t know yet. Um, that you could leave, uh, somebody who had a simpler, smaller step that is a bit tangible, [00:46:30] practical. To just build stronger, more agile organizations, more happier organizations, more successful on these things they want.

Very, very, very simple question, right?

Ivo Haase: Yes. Yes, there is something. And, um, and if, um, and if the listeners, um, 3point Malik, then you maybe know it, or you have an idea. I’m very. very focused on, on, on strengths within myself, but also in other people. So I think you should put people where they can use their strengths [00:47:00] so that they really can become great and what they are.

And since everyone also has weaknesses, we should be in a position where our weaknesses do not count too much. So this is something focused on strengths in yourself and also in others. Um, and, um, there’s one question. where you can help people to find out about their strengths quite easily. And this question is, what is easy for you?

Um, because very often, um, when, when, when I ask what might be such a question, I hear the answer, yeah, what do you like to do? Or so, but what we like to do is not necessarily [00:47:30] connected to what we are good at. But if you ask somebody, what is easy for you, where you don’t have to put too much energy to be successful.

And because it’s so normal for us, um, we, we don’t see it as a strength, but, um, as a leader, as a colleague, as a friend, um, even when we’re talking to children, you can ask them, what, what is easy for you? Which subject is the easiest? And then put your energies there to really do something special. And, um, don’t focus too much on the stuff that you are not good at.

Um, actually most of the stuff that is on this [00:48:00] planet, we are not good at. As far as my experience, um, everybody has something where he or she is really bad. good at. And, um, and it’s our job as leaders and, uh, also maybe as active citizens to, um, yeah, to help people so that they can use their strengths, um, so that they commit something to, um, and, and contribute something to, um, to our world.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, absolutely. It made me think of, uh, Um, I think it was Brené Brown and Priya Parker in conversation on a [00:48:30] podcast somewhere. And, and they asked each other like, what was the best business advice you ever got? And it was about charging the most for the thing that comes the easiest, which is super unnatural.

Like for me, I love the podcast and I would, I would say like, Oh, I’ll do it for free. And I mean, we also have to do that, but like, you know, sometimes you just, you don’t actually value it as much because it comes so easy to you and it is something that you’re, that you’re good at in comparison to maybe other people.

Uh, and I, that really stuck with me. That sentence, like [00:49:00] charge the most or the thing that comes the easiest or the thing that, um, I mean, okay, now we’re, we’re putting it into a capitalist context, but yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s that same kind of ideology, right? Value what you do, what you do best, uh, as much as you can.

Yeah, that’s, that’s great. And, and

Ivo Haase: since you, since you mentioned that was a capitalist context, I mean, in the end, um, can do all this voluntary stuff and all these trainings for free and pay because of that, and, and this is kind of, um, yeah, that gives also meaning to, [00:49:30] to, uh, to, to my business life. And actually for me.

I always put the same energy. I’m always putting the same efforts. It doesn’t matter whether I’m in a school doing this on a voluntary base or going to, to Beirut. Or doing, um, a training for, for my highest paying customer. For me, it doesn’t matter how much somebody paid. Um, I always, uh, do my best for the people that are sitting in the room because they actually are paying with their most scarce value.

They are paying with their time. And, um, so for me, it doesn’t matter. [00:50:00] But in the end, I think it’s kind of fair to charge people what they can contribute and not, um, yeah, that’s what, what makes it, um, make, makes it possible to, to do, um, to do these other trainings. So this is kind of fair from my, my point of view.

And, um, so in this case, capitalism, um, can, can lead to something good.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I really enjoyed to get to learn a little bit more about your life and how you use uh, Management 3point0, our practices and also legal seriously and all these things for [00:50:30] good. I mean, we, it’s always for good, but for, for all these different things.

So thank you for coming on the podcast. Thank you so

Ivo Haase: much, Elisa. Great.

Elisa Tuijnder: You’re right. Thank you.

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