Throughout history, women have faced an uphill battle against workplace stereotypes and biases in their efforts to reach the top of their chosen fields. But when they finally reach the summit after all that struggle, the fight isn’t over; in many cases, it’s just beginning.

Today we sit down with Susan MacKenty Brady, globally renowned Leadership Wellbeing Expert and CEO of the Simmons University Institute for Inclusive Leadership. Her new book, co-authored by Janet Foutty and Lynn Perry Wooten, draws on the experiences and knowledge of two dozen of the world’s most successful leaders, offering advice for those women hoping to arrive at the top and thrive when they get there.

Learn more about the book “Arrive and Thrive: 7 Impactful Practices for Women Navigating Leadership” here.

Have you ever wondered about the following questions?

• How do we give people and their happiness the attention they deserve in our organizations and transformations?
• How do we enable change for people and not push change on people?
• How do we create the culture and environment we need for people to express themselves?

Of course, you have! That’s why you listen to our podcast. But while podcasts are a one-way street, our Forward Summits are all about interactions.

So come and join the conversation at our upcoming summit: HAPPINESS AS THE ‘WHY’ IN AGILE TRANSFORMATIONS, held in Berlin, Germany, and online from 30 November – 2 December 2022,

Go to our designated Forward Summit Website for more info and tickets.

Transcript

*Please note that the transcript has been automatically generated and proofread for mistakes. But remains in spoken English, and some syntax and grammar mistakes might remain.

Elisa Tuijnder: [00:00:00] Throughout history. Women have struggled to reach the top of their chosen industries, but even when, after years of struggle against ingrained stereotypes and workplace bias, they finally do reach the pinnacle of their field and assume positions as leaders and executives and directors and managers, the fight isn’t over.

In many cases, it’s just beginning. Today, we sit down with a co-author of a new book that draws on the experiences and knowledge of two dozen of the world’s most successful leaders offering advice for those women, hoping to arrive at the top and thrive when they get there.

Before we dive in, you are listening to the Happiness at work podcast by Management 3.0 where we are getting [00:01:00] serious about happiness.

I’m your host, Elisa Tuijnder, happines enthusiast and management. 3.0 team member. In this podcast, we share insights from industry experts, influencers, and thought leaders about what it takes to be happy, motivated, and productive at work. So that loving your job becomes the norm and not the exception. We will be publishing every Fortnite on Friday.

So be sure to tune in and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

Our guest today is Susan MacKenty Brady globally renowned leadership, wellbeing, expert, and CEO of the Simmons University Institute for inclusive leadership. Her new book co-authored by Janet Foodie and Lynn Perry Wooten and is titled Arrive and [00:02:00] Thrive: Seven impactful practices for women navigating leadership.

It was published in April, 2022dby McGraw Hill. 

Thank you so much for joining me, Susan. 

Susan MacKenty Brady: Oh, my gosh. Thank you for having me.

Elisa Tuijnder: Ah, fantastic. So we’ll get into this incredible book in a moment, but here on the podcast, we always start with same question. What does happiness mean to you? 

Susan MacKenty Brady: Oh, gosh, it’s funny. You know what I was reflecting of course, about, happiness at work.

And when I think about happiness overall I would say it’s closely aligned with when I feel grounded and integrated in myself. So I’m coming from a place of feeling in full warm regard for me and warm regard for others. And from there can enjoy the moment the day, the people in my life, the greatness that’s all around right here right now.

So [00:03:00] happiness usually comes when I notice. All the things we really grateful for in the moment as opposed to planning for the future or processing the past . At work it’s maybe a little different as a CEO, my happiness is directly tied to knowing that my team members feel valued for their strengths and where there’s a feeling of unity and belonging as we go about our mission.

Yeah. 

Elisa Tuijnder: I love that your happiness is tied to your employees happiness as well in that sense. And that’s how it should be. So your book arrive and thrive features testimonials from women leaders who made it all the way to the top of their field, but then rather than being heralded or being applauded and respected were essentially judged and said: they were lucky to survive and made it to the top. So what did you and your co-authors think why did you think a book like this was important? I can, [00:04:00] already feel like it’s very essential to me. Write a book like that. And why is it so important in the current workplace climate? 

Susan MacKenty Brady: Yeah. I love this question because I think we’re also used to being resilient around something that really isn’t good enough any, it hasn’t been good enough and it still isn’t good enough.

And, too often our work culture encourages women to get their foot in the door only to leave them out, without support as they step in. And so we wrote, arrive and thrive to change that women leaders have had to focus on survival for too long and still in a world where women comprise less than a quarter of middle managers and that number shrinks and shrinks further at each rung of the corporate ladder.

And then those of us who rise to CEO levels experience higher turnover than our male counterparts. It occurred to us that surviving is really the floor, not the ceiling. [00:05:00] What we did is we went about answering a call for women and their allies who are searching for honest conversations and practical advice on how to thrive and to reach the top, but also really, feel like we’re moving about our lives in ways that are enriching and fulfilling and adding value and vitality, as opposed to being taxed and burdened and overwhelmed and worried, this book is about energy and energizing women to thrive. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. It’s really interesting that you said as well, that once you made it so top it’s there’s not a ceiling you have to break to. It’s basically a swamp. You have to survive almost how we always say, break the class ceiling, but actually once you break through it, yeah, the struggle continues. Unfortunately. 

Susan MacKenty Brady: It can be lonely, [00:06:00] and by the way, I don’t think we’ve done a very good job, marketing, if leadership was a brand that we were selling to women, I think we’ve done a remarkably bad job, it just doesn’t look all that attractive.

I think part of arrive and thrive also is reminding women and others who might not see themselves in positions of authority or power today, why striving for leadership can be really a wonderful thing to step into a wonderful way to exercise your calling and your strengths.

We just see the hardship of it oftentimes more, and then we feel it, those of us who arrive. 

Elisa Tuijnder: It can be a very rewarding role as well at the same time. Yeah. So the book highlights the new challenges for leaders brought on by the COVID 19 crisis as everyone has felt and seen. So could you walk us through how [00:07:00] the last few years have added an additional layer of difficulty for professionals who are trying to reach a top or who have maybe already landed there?

Susan MacKenty Brady: Of course, I think the pandemic has been depleting either directly or indirectly for all of us. The big quit though, the great resignation is really a phenomenon that’s dominated by women. It is a she-session of the first order, and this is mainly a phenomenon of care, inequity, where women take on the burden of care.

The majority of the burden of care. Organizations it’s time. We have to respond with ways to retain and engage and ignite women. We are 50% of the world’s population and yeah, we are. It’s important that we contribute to our economy. It’s important that we contribute to our communities and look, it’s harder.

It’s harder now. I think to be our best [00:08:00] self, it’s harder to thrive, to take risks. It’s harder to lead. It’s harder to manage it. Quote unquote all, when there are such extreme forces from the outside causing so much anxiety and frankly, real constraints, real healthcare issues. So I think, the other thing that’s weighing on this is really the zeitgeist at the moment.

If we’re not in a meaning moment in the world, I’m not sure when we would be. I think it’s, we’re seeing more craving for meaning and purpose and people are searching, all people are searching for what wakes them up and lights them up. And I think the pandemic woke a lot of us up to live with more conscious intention.

And I think women are leading the way in many ways in designing life that works. And now is our time to purposefully ensure that we don’t leave ourselves behind in [00:09:00] our own life journey. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, I’ve heard colleagues describe it as the Yolo economy is back and it’s really? Yeah. 

Susan MacKenty Brady: Yeah. And I it does cause one, I’m constantly weighing, I don’t know about you.

I’m constantly weighing the pros and cons of making bold choices because you only live once, it’s do I wanna spend this money on a vacation now? Or , yeah, 

Elisa Tuijnder: Maybe next year there might be a new pandemic and we won’t be able to get to do another vacation. So there is some, there is this fine line to be threaded into, still living in the moment, but also planning for this crazy future that we are constantly living in and all the stresses that are going on. Yeah. So the book centers is on seven key practices. Women can hone to thrive as leaders in pretty much any field, right? So the first of these is investing your best self. So I’d love you. I’d love for you to [00:10:00] expand a little bit on that. 

Susan MacKenty Brady: Sure. Investing in returning to our best self is really the first practice. And this is how to ensure we not only leave ourselves behind on our own journey, but we make choices that enables our best self.

And so the way we define best self in the book is where our strengths and talents. Those are strengths and talents that we might have at the characterological level that we were born with and all the things that we’ve learned along the way when those come together with where we add value to others, where we’re called to serve, bring our talents to bear in ways that benefit others.

And when that comes together with where we experience joy and vitality, really those three things, the trifecta is when we’re in our best self zone. I think it’s when we’re in our flow. Feel like we lose track of time because we’re so en engaged and around those three are our wellbeing [00:11:00] practices.

And I think, understanding who we are when we’re at our best understanding the things that get in our way or what we call the blockers to best sell and understanding probably most importantly, What the enablers are. Those are our wellbeing practices so that we can be in our best self as, as much as possible.

So the investment of best self is a continual investment. It’s noticing when we feel not great or not, something off taking pause and, coming back home to ourselves so that, we don’t leave ourselves behind and then feel like we haven’t been taking care of ourselves or other people are disappointed or we’re disappointed, so it’s a it’s I don’t ha it’s hard to say that I have a favorite practice, but I have a bias that this practice in the book is the foundational practice [00:12:00] because the other six practices are harder to put to action. When in fact we’re more distant from that best self zone. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. Is that something is the best self, is that something that can evolve over time?

Or is that, my best self, potentially my early twenties was this per best self and maybe best self, 

In the future might be a very different person. That original person. 

Susan MacKenty Brady: I’m so glad you asked that question. Not only does our best self evolve over time, our authentic self, our courageous self, our resilient self, our sophistication in leading teams, our sophistication in having a bold vision, our maturity in creating an inclusion, inclusive culture across the seven practices.

We evolve and change. It was actually one of the learning moments for me. I didn’t realize, but I had, I think an unconscious bias about authenticity [00:13:00] as if you are who you are. And life’s great pursuit is basically coming out as your genuine self in every context. Not out of, appropriate contextually appropriately, right?

And what the research spoke to was it’s absolutely an evolution, which by definition means we need to do frequent audits. Literally we, we include in the chapter on embracing authenticity of values audit, and I was surprised I value the top 20 values. I have probably been more or less the same over the course of the last 20 years for me.

But the order of them has changed. The importance of them has changed as my life has changed. My children are getting older. They’re more independent, my jobs have changed, so yes. Yeah. We evolve in change, which is both the exciting thing. And [00:14:00] also the sort of I think the tricky thing about arriving and thriving, yeah. 

Elisa Tuijnder: It can be quite scary.

Have you ever wondered about one of the following questions? How do we give people and their happiness, the attention they deserve in our organizations and transformations? How do we enable change for people and not push change on people. How do we create the culture and environment we need for people to express themselves? Of course you have! That’s why you listen to our podcast, but while podcasts are a one way street, our summits are all about interactions. So why don’t you come and join the conversation with our kick ass keynote speakers, Sunny Grosso, Svenja Hofert, Debra Corey and Francisco Mahfuz. [00:15:00] Take part in our practice sessions, case study sessions, open sessions and global networking, both in Berlin and online go to fwd-summit.com.

That is fwd-summit.com for more info and tickets. And as a podcast listener use the code FORWARDPOD at checkout. That is FORWARDPOD. To let us know you are a friend of the pod and receive some special Martie, the management monster goodies.

Scary actually really brings me to my next question for you. So you encourage professionals to, to cultivate courage and overcome these kind of fears. So that sounds like a tough one. What kind of practical steps can women take [00:16:00] to move past fear and take charge of their careers? 

Susan MacKenty Brady: So look, I think it all boils down to two things.

If I was gonna have to answer this quickly, my I think it’s inside us and outside us. So inside us is exactly what I was just talking about. It’s reflective in nature. It’s identifying the emotional triggers. To better understand where your fears come from at any moment. It’s also understanding and really knowing where you are when you feel like you are thriving as your best self.

So that’s, it’s looking at an inventory of values and really understanding what about this might be not okay for me. And so there lies the fear of, I don’t like something and I feel like I should take action around it, but I’m scared to. So how deep a value is it, how important it is to you?

Those are the, all the that’s all the inside job. The second being the outside job is asking for help ask for help. [00:17:00] We are not meant to go on this life journey alone. And I think women in particular way underestimate how many other people are delighted to help us along the way if we let them, if we ask.

And so my example is borrowing confidence when I feel scared or, vulnerable. Writing my first big published book Mastering your Inner Critic. I’d never written a book before. I didn’t know what I was doing. I happened to know a few, authors and obviously I was in the good hands of my editor and my first editor who was independent.

In McGraw hill, but I didn’t know how to do it. And so I, I asked for help. I asked for help when it came to, how do I write an acknowledgement session? How do I ask for endorsements? How do I know what the right way to capture a chapter? You know what I mean? So there’s so many [00:18:00] things that we don’t know how to do because we’ve never done it that other people have done and it’s okay to ask for their help and guidance.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. It’s funny how. I don’t wanna generalize, but it’s hard for people sometimes to ask for help, but I wonder sometimes as well, whether that’s because asking for help, so it’s men don’t ask for help. They do their things. They stand still. And that whether women in these fields sometimes feel like, oh, if we’re asking for help, we’re enforcing these kind of ideas that, you know.

Susan MacKenty Brady: So I have a framing that I think can help get around it, which is pretty inclusive. It’s thinking of this as consultation. Yeah. So can I get your consultation on this? I just, I would love your perspective. Yeah. Okay. So when is the last time someone came to you and said, I’d really love your perspective and stayed for the answer and you didn’t feel honored, valued, thankful, [00:19:00] so we know in the research that, that not just women, but all of us grossly underestimate other humans, desire to help. And we overestimate the tax. If we ask for it, the, oh my God, she must be incompetent. If she’s asking for help. We have to actually shift our paradigm to being smart, about asking for wisdom advice perspective from our wise youngers, our wise elders, our wisdom council, our personal board of advisors, whatever you wanna call it.

Elisa Tuijnder: I always say we’re never gonna solve complex problems without having, a broader perspective and talking to different people and talking to different cultures, different cultures, all of these kind of things. We all need to take those into account otherwise, and that is the form of consultation. And that is getting us all together on the same page. 

[00:20:00] So one of my, one of the favorite, my favorite practices in the book encourages women to create a future that does not exist yet. And that is very eloquently said. And what do the professionals you spoke with say about that, that being about being bold in, in the workplace and that future that does not exist yet?

What does it look like? 

Susan MacKenty Brady: I have to tell you I, my friend, Tiffany Dufu who, if you don’t know. Founded a company called the crew. She also wrote a book called drop the ball. She’s just every bit of awesome. And when we interviewed her around vision and a bold vision, I love what she said.

She said to create a bold vision, you must be comfortable with your ambition and have conviction that your vision will change the world. And I thought, wow. That’s pretty big. And I think, there’s, this is where a lot of gender bias plays out. So not just the prevailing biases men have of women [00:21:00] about when we show up bold, but that all genders have of women when we show up bold.

So my, my, my strong advice is as we think boldly act boldly, we need to balance. Hubris with humility. I write about this a bit in my last book, mastering your inner critic on the topic of authenticity. And also just being bold in the world is, for, for arriving and thriving, we must own our convictions.

And I think it has to be coupled with a learning mindset. The desire to achieve mastery of your craft combined with a desire to get public recognition for it is just ambition. And again, it’s not a singular journey or other people you’re not, you can’t actually create a movement or a mission of accomplishment.

It’s really hard to create impact if it’s a solo journey. And [00:22:00] on top of that society doesn’t condition, we, we condition women to believe it’s not okay to get credit. And so I think the overarching sort of sentiment, not just from Tiffany, but I think what the three authors bring into the work and others we interviewed around, creating a future that doesn’t exist is.

It’s really about leading from a learning standpoint and talking with others about what needs to change. And when you do land on something you believe to be worthy of your time, effort, and energy, your beautiful time, effort and energy have conviction about it. Go boldly. And I think that’s where, it’s, this is not a weakness of mine so if anything, I think I can be too bold sometimes, but and and so I have to [00:23:00] temper my own enthusiasm about ideas.

But I do think it’s a refreshing practice to own having a bold vision and inspiring other people about a bold vison. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Absolutely because that future hopefully is one where women are not afraid of ambition or are not afraid to voice it because we’ve just been so conditioned about how to be humble.

And , we can’t scream about some of our fantastic achievements, because that’s so ingrained in us to keep that down, and be humble in that sense. 

Susan MacKenty Brady: Yeah, no I would say simply this you are meant all of us are meant to shine our light. I really believe this. Yes.

Okay. And I don’t, sometimes a light can shine so bright that it casts a shadow. I do think with human behavior where there’s light there’s shadow, where there’s shadow [00:24:00] there’s light and it does mean no favors. If the people around me. Aren’t shining their light , yeah. And it’s it’s catchy, it’s catchy when I allow my light to shine and it’s going back to that first question as CEO. I think the happiness factor is I want everyone around me to feel like they can be honored and celebrated for their unique selves and that they’re bringing their strengths, what lights them up to the workplace. That’s what I want. And I’ve had to have difficult conversations about people, not being in the right role as it, and that’s okay. Because their light needs to shine in something that’s gonna help. ’em do it so much easier, 

Elisa Tuijnder: Being their best self that’s. Yeah. Yeah. This has been a theme throughout, but diversity and equality play, play very large roles in the book and [00:25:00] you encourage women to lead inclusively 

by modeling it further. So what kind of practices can leaders adopt? To shine, a light off inclusivity again, with the light shining. 

Susan MacKenty Brady: Yeah. Okay. Full disclosure. My colleague here at Simmons university, Elisa van Dam, and I created the six actions of the inclusive leader, which we originally published in a very simple playbook it’s available on Amazon called; the Inclusive Leaders playbook. And what we did is we incorporated a lot of this thinking into the last chapter of arrive and thrive and included a lot of Deloitte’s research also on inclusive leadership. But I wanna give you a direct answer to actions people can take. Cause I think people get really confused oh my God, it’s some elusive thing.

This thing called inclusive leadership. So there’s three high level actions. One has become aware. The next is becoming an ally and [00:26:00] upstander and the third is becoming a change agent. But the actions underneath there’s two actions underneath that I would implore people to think more about understanding bias is.

Is really becoming aware of bias in all of its forms, this the most talked about. Obviously we all have unconscious biases that can shape our actions and decisions if we’re not aware. But the first action really is to examine your own belief systems and uncover how bias might be a factor for you.

And also, understand how bias is maybe shaping the actions and beliefs of others. So that’s job number one, then, I think it’s incumbent upon all of us to dive into valuing equity and, remembering that thriving is an advanced state of wellbeing. At a rigorous vigorous level of development, we need individual understanding to increase our awareness of history in the current context of difference. So these are dimensions of [00:27:00] diversity and gender and race and sexual orientation and ability, and many more. These are what we call social identity. So valuing equity is going on a sort of a real journey of discovery about that. Then we come to, the idea of partnering for success, and this is, becoming an ally and upstander.

And this is using your awareness of how people in systems may be inadvertently, or sometimes deliberately create obstacles for people who aren’t in the majority and then intervening in ways that help to manage or remove those obstacles. This is really advocacy and then also advocating for belonging is another action people can take.

So it’s a, a fundamental human need is our need to belong. And a useful way to think about belonging is by considering how it interacts with another fundamental human need to be seen and, as unique. So being an advocate for belonging happens at the [00:28:00] individual level.

It means listening and valuing voices, are you listening and valuing the people around you? And then last but not least around becoming a change agent, there’s two, core parts to this one is sponsorship. So this is for those of you listeners who are in positions of leadership or management using your relationship capital to support the advancement of someone else is really important.

Because these are conversations of influence that can change people’s trajectory in their lives, nevermind their careers. And then at the process and system and policy and procedure level, the last action is really making change. Organizational change requires initiating shifts in some, formal and informal procedures and policies that help to level the playing field.

So you got me on a question that I feel pretty passionate about. I can tell. Yeah. [00:29:00] Yeah. The passion comes mainly from trying to make this accessible and at the Institute for inclusive leader. Which right now I’m honored to preside over. I really wanna simplify what it means to lead inclusively in a way that every leader knows and understands the day to day.

Sometimes moment to moment actions that they can take it. It is creating a, it’s creating a foundation where we can all thrive. That’s why I care. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Absolutely. So I hear you say listening and valuing voices, being a change agent, but I also think there might be a self component to this, right?

Or an I component or a me component. So that, and I think that’s where you address the embracing authnicity in the book. Could you expand a little bit on that piece of the puzzle.

Susan MacKenty Brady: Look, [00:30:00] no one can be you the way that youe can be you, right? Flipping authenticity on it’s head means seeing what Carla Harris, another leader we interviewed for the book reminds us, which is that authenticity is our competitive advantage.

And our research at Simmons, we did a research study on authenticity. And what it showed is that honesty, transparency, and openness are the top personal qualities to define authenticity. So if I had advice. For the individual, it would be take a look within and ask yourself, how honest, transparent, and open am I at work, sharing yourself in contextually appropriate and honest ways helps.

Helps to gain traction helps to build relationships. Some people get this really wrong and they think it’s okay to divulge, past traumas or personal stories in casual settings, or even as a first handshake, I’ve seen leaders tell deep stories out of context. Not in an [00:31:00] intimate, safe environment, but more like broadly.

And that’s not as appropriate. I’m talking about being you and sharing openly requires discernment and intentionality. And I think the higher women rise, but certainly for all leaders that the more thoughtful we need to be about how open we are about ourselves. And if we’re not, if we’re perceived as closed or worse yet faking it we’re gonna be sniffed out.

There’s no tolerance for a lack of genuine connection anymore. There’s just no tolerance. There wasn’t much tolerance before the pandemic. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Now there’s really no tolerance also exhausting. It’s also exhausting for you to keep trying to play a role, or for people. Yeah, absolutely. So here. On the podcast, [00:32:00] we are really big fans of tangible practices. Things are listeners can start implementing tomorrow. And in addition to co-authoring this book, you also serve as a globally recognized leadership wellbeing expert. So from your own career and experiences, What advice can you offer leaders or even aspiring leaders who want to avoid some of the challenges women have experienced in the past and build a truly fulfilling and worthwhile career for themselves and also help their employees or peers or anyone else in the process? 

Susan MacKenty Brady: It’s such a generous question. I’ve reflected a good bit this spring and summer about my work and my life. I have a milestone birthday approaching and my life has orchestrated almost a midlife audit, a midlife awakening, I think my best tip is when I just wrote a blog about just this week actually called the secret to mastering the hard stuff of leadership is being thoughtful and what I’d wanna leave [00:33:00] our listeners with is to remember from this podcast that, leading inclusively requires being thoughtful. Thriving requires being thoughtful, leading from your best self requires being thoughtful. Leading effectively at all requires thought being thoughtful, tending to our own wellbeing requires being thoughtful.

So for me, I think showing up thoughtfully is the core the center and from there all good things flow. So in the blog I offer 10 tips. About each one I’m gonna write in detail, but the 10 tips that I offer are what I mean by being thoughtful. It’s a state of being, not a state of doing it’s nice when your colleague, brings you a cookie or, offers to help.

But I’m talking about how we show up moment to moment that kind of thoughtfulness. And I know the more I slow down, take a breath, [00:34:00] calibrate my energy. Align intentionally think before I speak, all of these things help me to I think, have impact in the ways I really want to. And it leaves me having less regret and so I try to model the way albeit imperfectly.

And so I guess I’m on a mission right now to ask all humans to be more thoughtful. And I’m gonna continue, I’m gonna continue to talk about what that means and write about what that means. I hope that’s tangible enough for your listening audience, but you can find out more on inclusive leadership.com and track our blog.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, I was just about to say, if people want to go and get this blog now or read this blog. So that’s can you repeat the URL once more? 

Susan MacKenty Brady: Yeah. It’s [00:35:00] inclusiveleadership.com. Perfect. And then our book arrive and thrive has its own domain arriveandthrive.com. So you can find out about the seven practices of arrive and thrive.

And the work we do here at Simmons university and the Institute for inclusive leadership on inclusiveleadership.com

Fantastic. 

Elisa Tuijnder: No, that’s great. And I’m sure you’ll have people reading this blog now, cuz I’m a I’m already a candidate. I’m definitely gonna check it out. 

I’m intrigued by it. So Susan, all that’s left for me to do today now is thank you very much for coming on the show and coming to talk about arrive and thrive and some of the other things that you’ve done.

And 

yeah we look forward to, 

Maybe seeing you again one day . So you’ve been on the roll with all these books now. , 

Susan MacKenty Brady: I really appreciate being with you today. It’s such a pleasure to connect with you and thank you so much for having me. Thank you, Susan.[00:36:00] 

Elisa Tuijnder: You’ve been listening to the happiness at work podcast by Management 3.0 where we are getting serious about happiness. Be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And if you enjoy our shows, don’t be shy. Write us a review, share the happiness with your colleagues, family, your friends. Follow us on Twitter, Facebook or LinkedIn under Management 3.0.