What makes a great leader, and how can one avoid the pitfalls of being a ‘bad boss’?

Today, we explore these crucial questions with Debra Corey, a renowned expert who has spent decades redefining employee engagement and leadership.

Expect to learn strategies for managing stress, fostering authentic connections, and building a leadership style rooted in empathy, adaptability, and continuous growth.

More information about Debra here.
More information about DebcoHR here.

Transcript

*Please note that the transcript has been automatically generated and proofread for mistakes. But remains in spoken English, and some syntax and grammar mistakes might remain.

Elisa Tuijnder: [00:00:00] How do we rediscover our confidence, tap into our unique strengths, and create meaningful growth in both our personal and professional lives? Today’s conversation delves into these questions with an expert who has dedicated her career to empowering leaders and creative professionals. From overcoming burnout to mastering personal branding, we’ll explore strategies for breaking barriers and fostering authenticity.

We’ll also look into building confidence, Shaping a [00:00:30] strong personal brand and creating a healthy workplace culture that inspires connection and growth.

Before we dive in, you are listening to the Happiness at Work podcast by Management 3. 0, where we are getting serious about happiness.

I’m your host, Elisa Tander, happiness enthusiast and [00:01:00] Management 3. 0 team member. In this podcast, we share insights from industry experts, influencers, and thought leaders. about what it takes to be happy, motivated, and productive at work, so that loving your job becomes the norm and not the exception. We will be publishing every fortnight on Friday, so be sure to tune in and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

Today,[00:01:30]

we’re thrilled to have Debra Corey join us again, a distinguished leader in resources and a pioneer in employee engagements. Debra has graced the stages around the world sharing her revolutionary approaches to HR and leadership including her own in Berlin when we did a conference there. She’s here today to talk about her last insightful book that is Bad Bosses Ruin Lives The Building Blocks to Being a Great Boss.

Debra, it’s wonderful to have you [00:02:00] with us. Yeah. Thank you so much again for coming back on. 

Debra Corey: No, thank you. I always enjoy these conversations with you. Absolutely. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Me too. Heifer, let’s dive into a little bit again for the journey in your journey for those listeners who haven’t got to meet you yet and the incredible insights of your new book.

But we can’t start our podcast without a signature question, and that is, what does happiness mean to you? 

Debra Corey: It’s such a great question, and it really makes you think. For me, I sort of see happiness in both camps. So, the same [00:02:30] things apply whether I’m at work or I’m at home, and it’s things like having a purpose.

I need to have something that I’m really working towards, something meaningful. Um, I’m very goal oriented. I also want to make a difference. It’s really, I’m really passionate about trying to make a difference. Again, whether I’m cooking a meal for friends at home or delivering a training class to somebody else, happiness is definitely fun.

You have to have fun. That’s why I love being on your podcast and going to your events because they’re always, always fun. And then finally, I guess, people. You [00:03:00] cannot have happiness without people. So it’s those connections. Those would be the main things of happiness for me. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, absolutely. It’s so much, and so little, and so hard to get, yet so simple somehow.

It is so many things at the same time. I love it. That’s a good word. It gets us going, gets us thinking. So, you’ve had an amazing career in HR and written several books on employment engagement, company culture, etc. Do you want to give us a little bit of the lowdown on how you [00:03:30] got here for those people who haven’t got the chance yet to meet you?

And then, how did you get here? Why bad bosses ruin lives? What was the inspiration? Was it, uh, were you being the bad boss? Was someone being a bad boss to you? What happened there? 

Debra Corey: So I’ve been, um, in HR in a corporate environment for over 20 years, and I’ve had the pleasure of working at lots of different companies, different industries, different countries, and I’ve really learned a lot.

One of the main reasons I write my books is I’ve learned how to do things right, but I’ve also learned how to do [00:04:00] things wrong. So my job title is Chief Pay it Forward Officer. So that’s why I, I do so many talks and write books because I like to pay it forward so people don’t make the mistakes I’ve made.

But then also they can learn new things to, to set them up for success. So I left corporate about four years ago so I could focus more on this pay it forward element type of mantra. Absolutely. Yeah. And then she said, this is my, my sixth book. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. Wow. And what, what was the why? This one, why bad bosses? [00:04:30]

Debra Corey: So my second book I wrote was on employee engagement.

And when I was writing the book with my CEO at the time. We were, we were writing the chapter on management, and I was telling him a story of how I had this bad boss. And I, I came up with the phrase, bad bosses ruin lives, and it stuck. Every time I went and I spoke at events, people would, you know, talk about it and tell me about how a bad boss ruined their lives.

So that book was about four years ago, and I’ve been wanting to write one for a while, but it was more about [00:05:00] wanting to write from the perspective of having a bad boss, talking to people who have had bad bosses themselves. Thinking of all the times I’ve been a bad boss, to your point, and then also my kids are getting into the workplace and seeing how bad bosses are impacting their lives also.

So seeing it from a different lens, I think they all just combined. And decided to write it. And interestingly enough, I wrote this book with my husband. He’s an engineering leader. And I thought, do you know what? He and I have such different [00:05:30] perspectives about what being a boss is all about. Let’s bring these together in the book.

And, and I loved writing a book with him. He challenged me. And, you know, again, I think it’s much richer because it has both of our opinions and experiences. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, that’s so that’s amazing. I always try and do this as well. Like, I have, you know, I try and ask for opinions from people who come from a really rigid corporate background, like all of those kind of things, the things that I am not, you know, just to challenge myself and to kind of make it appeal sometimes to a [00:06:00] wider audience.

And then I think that is obviously, yeah, that’s definitely something that that does it. And I’ve met your husband, and I’m sure that it was an amazing process to do this. 

Debra Corey: I was going to mention though, in addition to my husband and myself and people sharing stories for each of the key elements of the book, I went out to thought leaders because my experience with writing book, one of the reasons I love writing books is that I learn myself.

So I don’t pretend I have all the answers. I go into a book with a framework and a shell, and then I bring people in. And I [00:06:30] think there were about 24 thought leaders that we brought into the book. I, you know, even if no one else reads the book, I learn so much myself, which, which I love. I always love learning.

Elisa Tuijnder: I’m sure a lot of us, I’ve not read the whole thing yet, but at least one other person has landed at, and I’m sure it has landed with so many more people. Before we go into really the content for the book, you know, you said you wanted to write a book from the perspective of bad leaders. Would you say at the moment it’s more of a book for [00:07:00] employees?

Like you said, like your children getting into the, in the work ground, or is it basically this book for, for everyone also to leaders wanting to be better? And I think I know the answer, but I thought I’d get it out there clearly. 

Debra Corey: No, it’s a really good question because there has, I’ve learned that the title is confusing.

I wanted the title because it was in your face. Um, but it is people, it’s not actually for bad bosses, it’s for good and great bosses because you know, that 5 percent of people who don’t really care about ruining lives, they’re never going [00:07:30] to read it. So for me, I even did a post about this saying this book is for good and great bosses because it’s for those type of people.

That being said, I’ve had some people who want to go into management and they’ve read it, so they’ve really enjoyed it. But my husband and I are kidding in saying how our next book is going to be for employees who have these types of bad bosses and how do you deal, you know, how can you take responsibility and ownership if you have a bad boss?

Because to some extent we all have a role to play. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, and you’re so [00:08:00] right there, right? You know, the people who really don’t care, they’re not going to read it. Reaching them is going to be tough, but, you know, at least the resources are there for them. So, in the book, you identify basically 10 types of bad bosses, and we don’t have to go into all of them, but, you know, can we have like a bird’s eye view of what those are, and You know, the idea of sort of that people recognize those traits, right?

So why do you think it’s really important for those traits to be recognized? [00:08:30] Um, as, as if you’re leading a team or an organization or. In any kind of context. 

Debra Corey: Yeah. So just to give you a bit of context, we came up with these 10 types of bad bosses by going out and talking to people. We did a survey and we asked people about, you know, what are the most common types of bad bosses?

So not just ones that we saw, but that other people saw. And interestingly enough, in our global survey, 99. 6 percent of people have had a bad boss. And for each of the 10 types of bad bosses, Each [00:09:00] of them, at least 50 percent of people have had each time. Mostly more like 60%, something like that. But the three most common, I thought I’d do the three most common.

So in the survey, the ones that more people said they had were, the first one was the unappreciator. You know, it’s pretty straightforward. It’s someone who doesn’t show recognition, gratitude, appreciation, not making their people feel valued and seen and invisible, all those types of things, which is so frustrating.

81%. The second type was, did not [00:09:30] surprise me. Micromanager. I am a micromanager. I am, I’m a recovering micromanager. I’m trying not to be one. 80 percent of people said that they have a micromanager. And again, I think a lot of us, it’s just a natural way to be, you know, we’ve been an individual contributor, we don’t really know how to, you know, delegate.

So that’s the second most common and tied with that one. is the avoider, 80%. Yeah, totally doesn’t 

Elisa Tuijnder: want to do the managing part of things. Wants to do the managing with all the leading parts, sorry, or like, you know, the people part [00:10:00] of things, yeah. Yeah, 

Debra Corey: and one of the things we tried to do to make them safe and not scary is we had these cute little emojis designed.

for each of them. So the one for the avoider is a ghost. And that’s what it is. You know, you’re a ghost to people. Either you don’t give them the time because, I don’t know, maybe you just don’t know how to manage people who are working remotely. 

Elisa Tuijnder: We don’t teach it very well. 

Debra Corey: We don’t. No, or we, we don’t know how to give feedback, those types of things.

So those are the three most common of the ten. Again, all of the others very prevalent. [00:10:30] But those are the three most common. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, absolutely. Some people get put into management roles. He’s just saying like people who wanted to get into it, but there’s people who naturally get forced into it because they want to advance in their careers.

And all of a sudden they have to take all of these responsibilities with them or have to do them and they’re not getting, get the tools. So they might not want to be bad bosses. They want to be good bosses, but just. Absolutely don’t have in hand the tools to be that. And I love that [00:11:00] you’ve kind of, yeah, you always put like a fun spin on things as well, a bit like we do and, and, you know, make it more accessible to people, and that really, that really helps.

Debra Corey: Yeah, and one of the reasons, I was going to say, one of the reasons we share so many stories, and a lot of them are my stories and, and my husband Ken’s stories, is to make it more relatable. So again, hands up, this is what I did. And to your point about, you know, we don’t do it intentionally, one of the first things we say in the book is that, you know, I’m [00:11:30] 100 percent sure that people don’t wake up in the morning and say, Oh, am I going to ruin people’s lives?

It just doesn’t happen. And one of the first stories I share in the book, which is quite embarrassing, but I still share it all the time when I do talks, is how when I moved from the US to the UK, I had only been a manager for maybe six months. I had one person reporting to me who was just like me, easiest person in the world to manage, to manage.

All of a sudden I moved to the UK, different cultures, different job, and about three months into [00:12:00] the job, uh, somebody pulled me aside and said, we, I just want you to know that we have a Deborah Corey support group that meets every Friday and we share stories of how you upset us or even made us cry. I had no idea I was doing that.

Absolutely, positively, it was not intentional. And without that braid boss, I probably would have continued to not ruin lives, but to negatively impact my people’s lives. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, and I can’t imagine it. It’s funny, right? You know, that culture [00:12:30]element also definitely comes in that cultural awareness that, that it’s, it’s tough.

It’s tough. Okay. So then you had this epiphany moment and, and, and went, okay, introspection and how do I, how do I make this better? 

Debra Corey: Absolutely. 

Elisa Tuijnder: All right. So cool. So that’s amazing. That’s an amazing story. So the idea is basically that we read this book and then go, Oh God, I think I do this for my people sometimes so that they don’t have to wait for this brave person to come along and say, you’re doing this.

Do you want to [00:13:00] share like, or make it a bit more tangible? So I read this, I see, Oh damn, I’m, I’m, I’m doing this. One of the 10, the 10 types of things I think I might do this 10 percent of the time or 20 percent of the time. I don’t know. I don’t know. How does the book then get me to do this? Well, one is awareness, which is already a great thing, but, and how does, does it, how does it help us go to the, to not do this as much anymore then?

Debra Corey: Well, I’m the kind of person who, and you, you’ve read my other books too. So, you know, I like to do things really straightforward and really simple. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Very much [00:13:30] appreciate that. 

Debra Corey: Yeah. Well, my brain can only handle so much. So we talk about the three A’s. So it is awareness, because I think too often what we do is we’re like, I think we might be doing this wrong.

So I’m going to go to a training class or something like, but has to start with awareness. And the great thing about writing the book with Ken is he’s a technology person. So he created a free and confidential online assessment. So you can go online to badbossesruinlives assessment and you can do this test.

So that’ll help you with [00:14:00] awareness. And then the next thing is to accept it. Cause if it’s great to know that you’re doing things wrong, you know, like my story. I’m making people cry. Okay, now what do I need to do? And I need to accept what are the things that I really need to change and develop. And then the last one is action and it’s very targeted.

So again, we’ve got a model called the great boss building block model, which will give people the tools to develop. So it’s, it’s very focused, trying to take people through the path and the journey, because it’s never going to end. It is [00:14:30] a continual journey. You know, you’re doing things right. All of a sudden you have a new employee who’s very different.

Or you The environment 

Elisa Tuijnder: changes, the outside changes. Yeah, there’s, there’s, we need more of other things, yeah. 

Debra Corey: Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I’m trying to like, give people like, you know, the yellow brick road type thing. This is where you go. Here are some things to help you safely get down the path. All of those types of things.

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, absolutely. And I love modular approaches in general because if we just get like this massive thing or like, [00:15:00] okay, yeah, you have to do all of these things. Half of the people will drop off already or probably more because it feels like an insurmountable thing. If we can do small changes, do small, feed small things and make it just more, a little bit more manageable.

It’s easier to get to the end of the road, to the end of the yellow, yellow, red road to get back home. We were just saying, environment changes, people need more skills, you know, there’s new employees all the time, there’s always adjustments to be made, but there’s also something that you mentioned in, in, in, you have this [00:15:30] newsletter, and I was reading, I can read it whenever you’ve put it out there, and, you know, the, the element of stress, came in there as well and how, how you then have an alter ego that sometimes also comes out.

And I think we all do like, you know, when we’re under pressure from, from outside, from inside, from within the organization or from things that we take back from home, we, we are, we are also people as leaders and managers. So how, how do you address that part in, in the book or? And how, how important is [00:16:00] it?

You know, very, I would say, but yeah. 

Debra Corey: Yeah. And actually that’s why I tell the story. So the story is about my alter ego, Debbie, and Debbie had gotten, or no, Deborah had been promoted and all of a sudden my job was like so stressful. But luckily I had learned from my last lack of awareness. And I realized the negative impact I was having on my people, because Debbie, my alter ego, was coming out.

So for me, it’s first of all having that awareness. So looking around you and seeing the impact that you’re having [00:16:30] on the people. And then the next thing, which is a very human thing to do, is to admit it to your people. And that’s what I did. I called them all together and I said, you know, guys, until I learn how to deal with this stress, It’s, it’s, Debbie is going to come out.

And we all made a joke about it and we’re like, okay, what can we do? And we came up with this idea of just creating a sign that we put on my door when Debbie is in. And it said something like, Debbie is in the office, enter at your own risk. I think that, you know, I share that story because, you know, there’s nothing wrong admitting to [00:17:00] your people that you’re not perfect.

So I think it’s that awareness, that acceptance, and then trying to figure out what caused the stress. Thanks. And to me, that was really the epiphany also. So understanding, was it the stress because I was adding more stress? Was it the stress from the business? Was it stress from the people? And really dissecting what the stress was and doing something about it.

And then not being afraid to ask for help. Cause again, I think for me, I always felt as a boss, you had to be perfect. You know, I had a boss once who yelled at me once [00:17:30] because I, I wanted to go out and get other people to help me on a project. And he’s like, I hired you to do that. And I could always hear him in my ear.

And then all of a sudden it was like, I’m not listening to you anymore. That’s not the right way to lead. Actually, my people were so, so impressed and had created a stronger relationship when I went to them. I said, you know what guys, I’m stressed. How can you help me? And they’re like, wow, she trusts and respects us enough to jump in and help her.

So I think for me, that’s, that’s a couple of [00:18:00] ways to deal with stress. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. Oh yeah. That’s a really amazing and tangible story, right? You know, it’s hard, it’s hard sometimes to tell people how do you deal with stress because it’s so, so individual and I also really like how it, highlighted how important it is.

And it’s kind of like teachers. If you had a good teacher, you will always think about that teacher, what they said to you. If you’ve had a bad boss or a good boss, you’ll, they’ll, they will be in the back of your head. They will be listening. You know, they’ll still whisper, whisper things at you. And what you said there, yes, no, we hired you to [00:18:30] do that.

That’s skills you can learn, right? And, and, and, and that’s a very, that was a good, a very good, you know, realization. And that really brings us to. Through that authenticity, vulnerability piece, which an empathy and compassion, which are all building blocks for, for great leadership, which we both yell from the rooftops at times, but it’s, it’s, it’s hard to practically sort of.

implement this. So maybe you have another great revelation there for people who find it harder, because I, I don’t have a hard time admitting my [00:19:00] mistakes and being out there, but a lot of people find it really hard. So how do you, how have you helped some leaders in the past with this element of leadership, which is so important and continues to grow in the age of digital advancements?

Debra Corey: I guess the first thing that we’ve done just going back to our model is that In the, in the Great Bus building block model, we have two types of building blocks. And the ones on the bottom, the foundational ones, there are six of them, and we call them the six pack, [00:19:30] is we make that point, which is, they are holding up the other things.

So, you know, some of the more tangible building blocks, like communications, and feedback, and listening. The point is, you know, as you said, without authenticity, vulnerability, empathy, compassion, respect, and trust, those are the, the six pack. Nothing else is going to work because if you don’t have them, you are never going to be an effective leader.

So I think the first part is just making people understand it’s not a, it’s a non negotiable. You cannot be a great leader [00:20:00] if you don’t do these things. And I think if people all of a sudden seeing the power of them and the importance of them, maybe they’ll start realizing, not like my old boss who thought that it was a weakness, That actually it’s a strength and a superpower.

And if I think of some of the best bosses I had, like my CEO, who I wrote my second book with, I think he was the one who really taught me about that authenticity and vulnerability. Because I remember I, I put in place this new HR program once, [00:20:30] and then an employee came in and like complained to him about me changing something.

And he forgot that why I had changed it. And he just got out and told people, we’re going to change it again. And when I spoke to him, like, Glenn, don’t you remember we did this, this, and that? He, he went out to the entire company and said, you know what, guys, I made a mistake. I was wrong from now on. Do not come to me with these questions.

Go to Debra for these questions. And I thought, wow, this is the CEO of my company who [00:21:00]is admitting this and people trust and respected him more. Yeah, of course. Again, people need to see it as a superpower. I have a quote in my book, actually, which is from you. Don’t know if you remember this. Which says, Authenticity seems to be a currency that humans have ignored for too long.

And at the same time, the key to turning things around. And I love that. I think that sums it up really well. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Okay, cool. You’re making me blush now. You forgot that 

Debra Corey: I quoted you. There you [00:21:30] go. 

Elisa Tuijnder: I’ve been thinking a lot about, I’ve been, I’ve been doing a lot around workplace culture recently. And I’ve been, I’ve been wondering, or I’ve been mulling over in my head a lot before I put it out, out in the world.

Sorry, Nipsey. How, you know, how different workplace cultures sort of lead into that authenticity and vulnerability piece and how important it is. And, and I know it’s harder in certain structures or certain cultures, workplace cultures, but also around the world, right? It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a difficult, difficult [00:22:00] piece, but I am so convinced that That, that’s, you know, the key to, to being a good leader, as are you, because it’s one of the, one of the building blocks.

Debra Corey: But you know what, I would almost challenge people and say that it’s actually harder to be inauthentic. It’s actually harder to be perfect. So if anything, you know, it actually is easier. So besides it being a strength instead of a weakness, It’ll actually be easier to do because you’re not going to be spending all this time thinking about, Oh my gosh, [00:22:30] how do I do, how do I be perfect?

You know, how do I do this? How do I do that? So yeah, maybe look at that, flip it around and look at it that way as well. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, absolutely. There is just a lot of unlearning that goes with it. And I think if you’ve been, been stuck in a, in a certain way, I trialed a lot this with, with my, my former housemate and then very best friend who, who always goes like, no, but that’s just the way it is in this industry.

I’m like, no, but that’s not the way it should be in this industry. Or I’ve always done it like [00:23:00]this. And because we’re friends and over a glass of wine, sometimes it’s good because it challenges me for the harder changes. 

Debra Corey: And it’s interesting because I think that’s why sometimes my books and my talks really strike home with people because I’m part of the history.

Do you know what I mean? I was doing it wrong. I was taught wrong. I’m the first person to raise my hand and say, you know what, I have been doing it wrong. Because I think to your point, we need to do that. We need to admit. We need to challenge. Because, you know, going back to authenticity, [00:23:30] vulnerability, in this new world, this social world where everything is out there, there’s nothing to hide behind.

If you think that you can hide the truth to these people, it is not, it’s not going to work. 

Elisa Tuijnder: No, and we’re adding an additional difficulty there, right? Where with AI announcement, your AIs also adopt your traits. Your AIs need the truth in order to get to the right strategic decisions. They can’t read between the lines.

They need to understand your culture. They need to understand your leadership style. [00:24:00] And that is, if you want to have them effectively working, in my opinion, then the ultimate business piece becomes even more, even more important. And the trust and honesty, you know, you can’t expect to make decisions based on data input.

That was, that wasn’t put in there. Honestly, I don’t know how you feel about that part of the advancement. 

Debra Corey: Yeah, no, I agree. I think that that technology is leading us down the path of having to be more authentic and vulnerable. And I love your point [00:24:30] about AI because you’re right. You know, similar to Lee, when you said, how about we pick up the traits of our bad bosses, or great bosses, AI is going to pick up our traits as well.

So it’s a really interesting way of, of looking at it. It’s a, it’s a looking in the mirror moment thinking, it’s like when you hear your kids say something that you said. Hey, you 

Elisa Tuijnder: look 

Debra Corey: dumb. I say that.

Elisa Tuijnder: Stuck in a rut, our silos and outdated leadership styles stifling creativity and [00:25:00] collaboration. At Management 3point0, we understand these frustrations. That’s why we offer tailor made training programs designed not just to enhance skills, but to transform entire organizational mindsets. With our expert guidance and vision, our workplace where barriers are broken down and everyone is empowered to contribute their best.

And leadership not only manages. but motivates and inspires. Ready to create a thriving workplace culture? Then visit [00:25:30] our website at management3o. com and see how we can help your organization build a happier, more productive workplace.

I was, uh, I was earlier just talking about, you know, this workplace cultures and, you know, how some of them in, in, in, you know, command and control. And, you know, it’s still, it’s still possible for being, to be an authentic and a different kind of boss, even though the workplace culture is, you know, Leans toward or leans towards a certain side.

But do you feel [00:26:00] like what are sort of these systemic changes that we can see in advancements or what do we need for this to be easier for everyone with on the workplace or in the workfloor? 

Debra Corey: Yeah, I think one of the reasons I wanted to write this book and we spent just as much time on awareness and acceptance as action is I think that self awareness is absolutely key.

You know, I’m the kind of person I want to just go in and solve problems. And I think when it comes to how we develop as bosses, we do that. And I think that we’re [00:26:30] never going to be able to manage the changing world and building cultures if we don’t start with ourselves and become more self aware, positive and negative, you know, it’s not all about what we do bad.

It’s also about what do we do right. And we talk to our people about it. And we just start with this concept of self awareness. And then also we don’t hide from it. You know, again, we’re trying to make it real that, you know, we all do things wrong, just accept it, move on with it. You know, like me, I’m a micromanager.

I will always be a micromanager, but it’s what you do with [00:27:00] it. You know, I’m short. I am always going to be short. Well, what am I going to do? I’m going to wear high heels, whatever it is. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. And it can also see it as a superpower, right? You can turn it around for certain things. 

Debra Corey: I can sneak in places and people don’t see me.

So yeah. Absolutely. And then I think the last way we’re going to do it is to really focus on this concept of developing. You know, there was a survey I saw, I think it was Perkbox who did a survey and they talked about how challenging it is for, for bosses and managers right now. And because we’re not making development a priority, we, we said at the beginning about [00:27:30] the avoider.

You know, the reason many bosses are avoiders is because we’re not helping them figure out how to manage hybrid people. So we really need to shift it and give our people the time and space to actually do their job. And to me, I think that’s, that’s huge. Huge. Don’t just keep throwing things on these poor managers and expect them to be able to do it.

It’s not going to work. 

Elisa Tuijnder: And what I’m, what I’m seeing, and this doesn’t come from a study, this comes from literally talking and, and talking to facilitators and all that stuff, that it’s really hard out there at the moment [00:28:00] for L& D practitioners because companies are so busy with other things. They are, you know, there’s a lot of turmoil in the markets again, and it started stabilizing, but then there’s the AI piece and all of these kinds of things.

They’re so busy with other things. Then L& D is getting, again, when every time when something big happens, L& D gets pushed down the line. But those are the people who are having to implement the changes on the ground. And they have to manage through it, and they have to make sure that it is, you know, no panic, and change management, and psychological safety, and all of those nice little [00:28:30] buzzwords.

And yet, they’re always forgotten in these times. So, why is that? 

Debra Corey: Yeah, and you know, that’s why one of the things that I, I do as much as I will just data, data, data all the time is I try to throw out, this is what happens if we don’t do it. And I think that’s what, you know, the L and D people need to do more often because you are right.

It is often the first thing that, that just like, we don’t have time, we don’t have money. And I think we need to show our, you know, our senior executives. Okay, that’s [00:29:00] great to say, but what will happen if we don’t do it? So if we don’t give our managers these new skills, we all know people leave bosses and not companies.

You know, I think seven out of 10 people said that’s why they leave. And a lot of times it’s not their fault. It’s as we said, they’re not getting the development they need. So I think we need to start showing our businesses the what’s in it for me and how you’re going to see it impact the bottom line and start from there.

Because there’s tons of data, you know, not just my book, but there’s tons of data out there. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Oh yeah. 

Debra Corey: About [00:29:30] what happens when you get it wrong, but also what happens, you know, when 

Elisa Tuijnder: you get it right. 

Debra Corey: Like appreciation, perfect example. Some people think, Oh, what’s this? Thank you. It’s going to make no difference.

And my challenge is every time you show appreciation, you’re telling somebody they did it right. So next time they go to do it, they’re going to quickly do the right thing. They’re not going to waste time. They’re going to be more productive. They’re going to help the company. You know, I’ve seen it change in companies where when things start getting challenging, my executive team go, what can we do to help develop our people?[00:30:00]

And that’s nirvana, from my perspective, that’s nirvana. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Absolutely, absolutely. And with the changes being so constant, and with, you know, the increasing, the increasing importance of workplace culture in maintaining, sort of, the structure of the, and the integrity of the organization, because We are working remote, we are working hybrid, we are working with less, less middle management because of the pieces of AI coming in and technology coming in.

It is so important and I’m actually saying, you know, it’s time that L& D and, and it gets into the [00:30:30] boardroom, right? They, they have to be there from the start setting this out and it’s no longer going to be a two week program somewhere at the start of being hired or, you know, somewhere down the line. It is, it needs to be an integral part of.

The employee journey, basically, and the leadership journey, I would say. I 

Debra Corey: love it because, you know, I can picture being in board meetings and we talk about this is the business challenge. And then the product people go, we’re going to build this new product. Finance goes, we’re going to spend this money.

And to [00:31:00] your point, the people function, when I’ve seen it work well, says, this is what we’re going to do to support our bosses is what we’re going to do to support our people. And they see it to your point as a business function that can actually drive Business is success. So yeah, absolutely. I’m with you.

Elisa Tuijnder: Let’s hope that, that, that happens sooner rather than later. But I think it’s one of those things where it’s going to have to happen. Um, and it’s going to get forced, forced into them. Bring it back a little bit before we before we have to get [00:31:30] to the end already, but, um, back to the book a little more, so what are some common misconceptions about bad bosses, you know, you’ve talked to a bunch of thought leaders and tried to write out some of your stories and then I guess you get some kind of epiphany moments because of all of that, so What are common mistakes that are made?

What are common misconceptions? Do you want to give us a few nuggets and make us wisdom there? 

Debra Corey: I think one of them is that it’s not me. So the good news is we [00:32:00] did two surveys. So the one survey we asked people and 99. 6 percent of people said they had a bad boss. We did do another survey with bosses and we said, are you a bad boss?

And the good news is 80 percent of them said they are. So I was really, really impressed with that. However, when we went through the 10 types, it was a different story. So I said before that the employee said for each of them at least 50 percent were in existence. Whereas I think that they don’t, [00:32:30] bosses don’t really understand what they’re doing wrong.

And I get it because it wasn’t until I wrote the book and I went through all 10 that I was like, Okay. Me, me, me. Like, I never really thought of it, even when we were writing the 10 types. It wasn’t until we were looking for stories, I’m like, oh shit, I’ve got a story for each of them. So I think to me, that’s a misconception that it’s not me, I’ve got it right.

You know, and I think people need to just start looking at it as an opportunity to say, gee, you know what, I haven’t gotten it right. I think another misconception is we don’t understand what [00:33:00]causes us to make these mistakes. So we don’t understand some of the traps or hurdles. So we talked about time, you know, like people are getting it right, but they’re getting it wrong because they don’t have the time or they don’t have the training or, or also the misconception that all of our people want us to be a boss in the same way.

I’ve made huge mistakes when it came to that. So it’s, you know. That you can be the same boss for everyone. It is not going to work. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. Situational leadership, right? Like. 

Debra Corey: Absolutely. And even just, you know, our people change depending on what’s happening, you know, so [00:33:30] we always have to be flexible. And again, I’m the kind of person who I look, I see it as an opportunity.

Not like, Oh my God, why do I constantly have to flex? It’s like, Yes, I get to flex. I get to be a leader in different ways. So yeah, I was a gymnast. So, you know, stand on your head, do a headstand, look at it that way. 

Elisa Tuijnder: It’s, it’s tough being a good boss, right? It is. I feel like there might also need to be a rethink on, there was a natural progression, like you had to be a boss if you were good in your role.

Even if you didn’t want to, you, [00:34:00] you couldn’t just be, you had to progress, right? It was written in the bylaw, saying no would mean that you’re no longer motivated or whatever, but all of a sudden you have to take up all these responsibilities that no longer have to do with The product role that you have or any other like software role, anything that you’re doing, there’s a whole new set of skills that comes with it and sort of almost separating these two things, I think would in time lead to, to, to better.

Results on the ground. 

Debra Corey: And do it for the right reasons. So it’s interesting [00:34:30] cause my husband, Ken, he, I thought he would be an amazing boss. And for years I encouraged him to be a boss. He’s like, no, I just want to code. I just want to develop. That’s what I want to do. And I kept saying, no, no, not for the money, just because I knew he would be great.

And finally he decided he was ready for it. He decided that he wanted to shift. And I think that that’s one of the biggest problems is that many of us get thrown in it to your point. Because we’re, we’re a good technical person. So I think we as [00:35:00] bosses need to do it for the right reasons. And also organizations, I’m a big believer in designing different career paths.

So that that’s not your only way to make more money or to have more seniority. And I think that would help as well, you know, to be in the job for the right reasons, and then to your point, have the right training, support, and development. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, organizational structure is important. You know, there’s way more than a linear progression and there’s way more than a waterfall structure when we look at it at the other side.

That, that could make your company way more [00:35:30] agile, adaptable, and your people way happier and, and recognized and satisfied, you know, very important. Right. God, I feel like we rushed through a lot of different things in a very short amount of time, but unfortunately we’re going to have to sort of. wrap up and I hope I’m sure we’ve gotten some people very excited about this, about the book as well.

But, you know, we always want to leave our listeners at the last element. I know we’ve done this a lot, but we always want to leave our listeners with a tangible practice, something they can start [00:36:00]practicing sort of tomorrow, either for themselves or for with their team. So do you want to share one more or two more, whatever you want that you find effective and predominantly linked to sort of theme of the podcast, happiness at work and, and.

Giving more happiness to your people. 

Debra Corey: Yeah, I guess the first thing is on the book cover, there’s two sides of, of the symbol that we created. And the first one is that bad bosses ruin lives. And then the other one is that great bosses enrich lives. And I think the [00:36:30] first thing for, for all bosses, leaders, managers, whatever you want to call them, is to understand the, the important role and the important privilege that you have in enriching lives, in creating happiness.

And again, I see it as such a wonderful thing. I’ve had situations where I have been changed by amazing bosses or I have changed the lives. So I think the first one is just admitting that, seeing it and taking your, your role, you know, seriously. Serious, yeah. Absolutely. And then going back to what I said at the beginning, you know, again, I tried to [00:37:00] create something really simple.

Think about the, the three A’s. So think about what can you do to be more aware? Of the impact you’re having good and bad on your people. Talk to your people, do self, you know, self reflection, whatever it is. Accept it and think about, okay, now what am I going to do? Be intentional about it and then take the appropriate action.

Focus on what is genuinely going to make a difference. So like me, appreciation comes really natural. I just do it. I don’t need to focus, I don’t have to be intentional. [00:37:30] Whereas as I said before, Micromanager doesn’t. So we can’t do, you know, a million things or 14 building blocks at the same time. Focus on the one, two, or three that are really going to make a difference.

Talk to your people, see what, how they want you to do it better, and then take the action to, to make those changes. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah, that’s where your awareness piece is, again, so important, right? Knowing where it lacks, knowing where you can shift the little bars, a little bit further up the slider, or a bit down, because sometimes I feel like I have to do [00:38:00] some things down.

And accept your 

Debra Corey: imperfections. We’re never going to be perfect. That’s fine. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Yeah. That’s, that’s the way it is. That’s the way it is personally, perfectly, uh. Absolutely. Deborah, when people want to go and find your book, I know they are available on Amazon, but maybe also where your LinkedIn, your, your website, let’s, let’s plug it in case people want to follow some more of your things.

Debra Corey: Yeah, no, absolutely. The website is, is in the infant stage, but I’ve tried to throw a bunch of free things out there. [00:38:30] Yeah, I need to do a bit more work on it, but you know, I wanted to get a website out from the beginning so that you’ve got the awareness test there. I’ve got some blogs, I’ve got some free downloads and it’s just badbossesruinlives.

com. So definitely go through there. We’ve got a newsletter that we do every month. So jump onto that and by all means, connect with me on LinkedIn. I’d love to, you know, be able to hear the great things you’re doing and for you to follow what I’m, I’m sharing as well. 

Elisa Tuijnder: Great. Well, we’ll link it in the show notes for easy access.

And then, I mean, [00:39:00] podcast number, whatever is coming, or a book number is already in the, in the makes. So. 

Debra Corey: I’m trying to slow down. I’m trying to focus a little bit more on getting more of this out there. Cause I just love writing books and then I don’t take it to the next level. So we’re trying to do things like create a couple of workshops.

Also, we’re going to turn the assessment into 360 feedback. That’s amazing. I don’t know about you, but I learned so much more from my people. So yeah, watch this space on that. 

Elisa Tuijnder: I can’t wait for that. All right, Debra. It’s always great to talk to you. Thank you so much for [00:39:30] coming back on and talking about this very important problem and problem and solutions that are available.

Debra Corey: Thank you again. Thank you. 

Elisa Tuijnder: You’ve been listening to the Happiness at Work podcast by Management 3. 0, where we are getting serious about happiness. Be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and if you enjoy our shows, don’t be shy. Write us a review, share the happiness with your colleagues, family or friends.[00:40:00]

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